CSS Support Could Be Internet Explorer's Weakest Link
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Microsoft will be doing a lot to make developers and customers happy with its pending Internet Explorer release, if partner sources with inside information on the IE 7.0 browser are right. But there's one area where Microsoft won't be winning a lot of applause. The company will continue to drag its feet by refusing to provide full support for the CSS2 (Cascading Style Sheets Level 2) W3C (Worldwide Web Consortium) standard, Microsoft partners say. Sources claiming familiarity with Microsoft's IE 7.0 plans said the company will add some additional CSS2 support to its new standalone browser. But Microsoft isn't planning to go the whole way and make IE 7.0 fully CSS2 compliant, sources said. IE 7.0 is expected to go to beta testers this summer. Microsoft has declined to provide a final ship-date target for the release, which will be designed for machines running Windows XP Service Pack 2, Windows XP Professional x64 and Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 1. But some sources hear that Microsoft is planning to ship the final IE 7.0 release this fall. IE developers and users have been clamoring for full CSS2 support for years. CSS2 is a style-sheet language that allows developers to attach font, spacing, speech and other information to structured HTML documents and XML applications. CSS2 separates the presentation style of documents from document content with the goal of simplifying Web authoring and site maintenance. One partner said that Microsoft considers CSS2 to be a "flawed" standard and that the company is waiting for a later point release, such as CSS2.1 or CSS3, before throwing its complete support behind it. When asked about its plans for supporting CSS2 in IE 7.0, a Microsoft spokeswoman said, "Unfortunately we can't disclose anything about IE 7 right now, so we won't be able to comment on standards and CSS2." The spokeswoman instead pointed to Microsoft's IE Weblog, where company officials are highlighting Microsoft's partial CSS2 compliance in IE 6.0, the most recent version of Microsoft's Web browser. Next Page: Some demand full compliance. A number of Web developers and customers have maintained that partial CSS2 compliance doesn't provide cross-platform interoperability and other benefits that full compliance does. "Now that sites like Google Maps have shown how much Web designers can do with CSS and DHTML [dynamic HTML], it would be a shame for Microsoft to ignore CSS2 in IE 7.0," said James Thiele, a Seattle-based consultant and trainer. Robert McLaws, president of Interscape Technologies, is among those who say they are disappointed at the initial word that full CSS2 support won't be coming with the browser refresh. "Full CSS2 support is the one thing that every developer has been asking for. CSS2 is a great standard and, at some point, Microsoft will probably support it fully. But, the longer they take to do it, the more they alienate developers," McLaws said. McLaws, a .Net developer and consultant, said full CSS2 support would give Web developers more control over how pages are rendered. Right now, IE's lack of support for fixed positioning is one of the biggest headaches for developers. "You have to write code for IE and then you have to write code for all the other browsers. No sane developer can ignore IE, because it is the dominant browser, but because of the way Microsoft deals with the standards, you have lots of sites that are not standards-compliant," McLaws added. McLaws, who runs the Longhornblogs network, said a lot of "extra time and resources" had to be expended to make the site render the same way on all Web browsers. "What is Microsoft's job? If their job is to make it dirt easy for developers to create great Web sites, and they don't support the same standards that other browsers support, they're making my job more difficult." Sean Mitchell, a Web developer and IT consultant based in Ontario, Canada, echoed those gripes. "I can build a Web site that works fine in a dozen flavors of Mozilla-based browsers, across countless different versions of several different operating systems, but the same page renders differently on different instances of Internet Explorer. That's always an issue. "Typically, about 20 percent of my time goes into coding a site to spec, that works in standards-based browsers, and then 80 percent to make it look right in IE," Mitchell said. "It seems to me that if Microsoft is going to bring out IE 7.0, then it should be up to all the latest standards," said another user, who requested anonymity. "For now, anyway, it looks like all they are going to do is bring out another slightly updated version of IE that will still need constant updating and patches to fix all the 'holes' just like the current version, instead of giving people what they really want and need—a secure browser," the user added. Next Page: A possible focus on security issues. Michael Cherry, senior analyst at Directions on Microsoft, said he believes the software giant's biggest focus will be on security issues with features and standards support taking a back seat. "There really is not a groundswell of experts or analysts saying that customers should abandon IE because it doesn't support tabbed browsing or comply fully with CSS specifications. "There may be frustration over these points, but it does not seem that Microsoft has to address them before Longhorn, or risk losing market share to any competitive browser," Cherry told eWEEK.com. "It also seems that CSS support may be more important for client side work, and full or complete CSS support makes a thin client more attractive. This would seem to be counter to Microsoft's push for 'rich' clients. So you might not expect them to rush to fix any issues in this area," Cherry added. "I am not sure customers should be looking for an IE 7.0 release before Longhorn to address anything more than security, unless there are other issues that are potentially giving competitive browsers, such as Firefox, an advantage over IE such that users would make a change to get. Any thing other than security can probably wait for Longhorn, or longer," he added. From a developer's standpoint, Mitchell disagrees. "IE is missing some very useful things, like max-width. You have to hack your way around it, and then you run the risk that the page will break when Microsoft improves IE's standards support. Even now, I expect many, many sites out there will break badly when IE 7 hits the street." "The same developers who chose to cut corners will now have to put a lot of work into fixing their sites," Mitchell added. However, not everyone is clamoring for full CSS2 support. "CSS 2.0 has a few nice features, but realistically, I don't think it being in there makes much difference either way," said a Windows developer, who requested anonymity. |
Comments (13)
One may wonder whether IE7 is not simply part of a previously decided approach by the Redmond software maker.
The firm has recently noted it is including some Longhorn components in XP; IE7 is likely nothing more than that--the IE 7/8, or close to it, that will appear in Longhorn.
IE 7 may be used in this context somewhat cynically, as with .NET on the horizon, IE 7 Longhorn-style will either be largely obsoleted by .NET's essentially proprietary makeover of desktop-to-Web connections, or it will be built primarily as the host container for a more proprietary .NET-dependent Web.
The fact that CSS isn't gonna get full support hints at this.
Web developers may do well to consider what the point of a Windows XP IE 7 is anyway. Oh, it is the Redmond line that everyone is going to XP; but in reality the majority of world computers that are used to view and more importantly buy and sell via Web pages don't use XP overall.
Rather than be a step forward, this move may logically be seen as creating a serious fragmentation in the IE platform--a fragmentation Web developers will find raises the bar in terms of the "opportunity cost" of not simply going to .Net dedicated apps and leaving the "standard" Web behind.
Is Redmond moving to make the standard Web too great a cost to program for? That is the question of the day.
Posted by Keith Risler | March 17, 2005 10:02 AM
Internet Explorer doesn't even support the Q element (for inline quotations) from HTML 4 (W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999) which is over 5 years old. You'd have quotes.google.com by now if IE had supported that element.
Posted by Xangfoo Xangfoo | March 17, 2005 10:35 AM
Not even Opera or Mozilla have full CSS2 support. Why is only Microsoft getting the pressure here? You can see the missing features from Mozilla's CSS2 implementation on Bugzilla #10713, #15432, #52746, and #115199. You can see Opera's CSS2 bugs at the website: ( http:// my.opera.com /forums /showthread.php ?threadid=77444 )
Posted by Nathar Leichoz | March 18, 2005 7:14 PM
Wow, that's arrogant. Over the last ten years or so I have encountered this attitude occasionally and it always seems like it's from zealots who need to get a life. Microsoft/IE doesn't owe web developers diddly. The comment, "Typically, about 20 percent of my time goes into coding a site to spec, that works in standards-based browsers, and then 80 percent to make it look right in IE," is simply ridiculous. I spend 95% of my time developing for IE because IE has typically had 95% of the market. Until recently compatibility with other browsers has been a complete who cares. Most of the time I don't even check for compatibility in non-IE browsers.
Posted by asd asd | March 19, 2005 2:16 AM
What kills me about the mindless comments by Windoze developers is their seeming ignorance of the purpose of the internet. The internet is a publicly accessible network, that is supposed to be useable by anyone. Building sites that require not only a particular browser, but a particular operating system, is tantamount to building highways that are only accessible to one make and model of car. Sites that are programmed only to work on IE for Windows are a sign of one thing, and one thing only: a lazy web developer.While the current figures show 84% (depending on whose stats you're reading) of users are accessing the web with IE, that's still 16% of the viewing public who will not be able to access your site, or who will do so and view borked content.Considering the millions of people online, 16% becomes a sizeable number of people.What business owner in their right mind would knowingly alienate thousands of customers?This issue is about one thing: M$FTs arrogant disdain for complying with standards. All one has to do is look at their horrendous track record on matters related to security, and OS vulnerability, to realize that the only reason they are in a position of market dominance is thanks to a combination of predatory business practices, and the luck of being in the right place at the right time.
Posted by Foo Baka | December 22, 2005 12:50 PM
I love that Microsoft is now coming under fire legally (go lawsuits) for following that very same attitude that "asd asd" shows here. The fact that he doesn't really care about compatibility with other browsers also goes to show why the internet is so broken.
Let's ask ourselves something. You have a file, let's say a .gif file, since they're fairly common. So let's say that you also have five .gif viewer programs that display the graphic. But suppose one of those .gif viewers decides that it will display certain types of data within the .gif file differently than the others (i.e. the order in which pixels are arranged). The .gif files will show up wrong in that viewer unless you modify it to accommodate that one viewer. And unfortunately, a large number of people use that viewer, so you can't ignore it and make it die so that the standard formed by the other four will be a true standard.
Microsoft claims to have produced a useful internet viewer, but they fall short because it doesn't follow the standards that every other major browser follow. Internet Explorer failed to create a usable standard for HTML rendering, and the open-source folks stepped up. Now Microsoft is waffling, and in my honest opinion, I think it has something to do with their deep resentment of the open-source movement.
Posted by Rob Cain | December 29, 2006 10:46 AM
Nobody makes a PDFs by writing Postscript in Notepad, but that is what designer's working for the web are expected to do. That is how far web design has come. Postscript is a page description language like HTML or CSS. By now we should have a Quark Xpress or Indesign for the web, but the only morsel the software industry has thrown designers after a decade of the web is CSS coding and a choice of Georgia or verdana. It's beyond the joke.
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Posted by scotshin | February 17, 2007 3:54 AM
Nathar Leichoz, you make me laugh, IE gets grief because it has no support at all, at least moz and opera to name just 2 work at all!
Get real
asd asd, you also make me laugh, your the windows zealot trying to make sense out out of nonesense, maybe you get to spend 95% of your time on actual content coz your a crap dev that produces crap sites. some of us like to progress to new things and not stay in the dark ages. if your fine with then then all good, but you have no place posting that nonesense here.
Foo Baka, You speak double talk, of course the internet is open, it's microsoft that isn't. you go out and pay for windows and you think IE is free when you payed for it through your OS. don't you realise that? the opensource browsers do better than a paid for browser on a supported platform and thats just wrong.
I advise everyone to get a grip and see through all this nonesense, stop wasting your hard earned cash on a flaky operating system that forces you to upgrade and pay more every year and get a REAL STANDS COMPLIANT system that comes ready with everything allready in and running. put the fun back in to computing and stop wasting your time re-installing the operating system and the myriad of other software bundles which you also have to pay for and spend a whole day before the system actually does something useful ;)
http://www.linux.com
personally i love kubuntu, you might like it too. good luck and happy computing :)
Posted by LA | July 1, 2007 7:12 PM
hay!!
good project :)
senks :)
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Posted by roorfeigo | February 18, 2008 5:24 PM
Go for firefox ... that is good in usability & technical functionality...
Posted by Microsoft CRM Consulting | August 12, 2008 4:20 AM