Whoa! Shops? Hellooo! Setup cost! Operating cost! Why would MS do this unless:

a. they were confident they'd get so much more money in that it's worth fitting out shops, taking out leases, hiring people, and paying other expenses for operating a shop.

b. they were confident of moving a LOT of software. Uh... how many times a year do Jane and Joe buy MS software?

Maybe they're trying to imitate Apple - they'll have shops packed with bags, stickers, zunes, Xboxen, and of course the latest MS desktop/laptop computer which is priced like a Mac but of inferior quality.

I can't imagine how an MS shop could possibly be a success. I can only hope to grab some things real cheap at their 'going out of business sale'. :)

Something tells me that the results of this will be very entertaining...

I'm with Anymousezzle.

This is a horribubble time to enter Retail.

Besides what you gonna buy at an M$ store you can't get anywhere else?

Software.... Staples or office depot.
Games...... Gamestop or the intardnets
Computers.... Hey kid fugeddaboudit. Microsoft can't sell microsoft branded PC's it'd tick off their OEM life's blood.
Zunes? ....Okay I'll admit I have one because I hates teh iPizzle but no one else even knows what the FCSK a zune is.

Joe My advice to them is don't do it. It's a money sink, and a bottomless one at that.

Now I guess if they got together with Dell and HP and Acer and Gateway and offered to distrubute their absolute BEST hardware with discount versions of office products... This could work.

Just one problem... They're too fSCKIN greedy to get this right. And all you Win-Lovers can spare me the drama. I use and love M$ products. I am an admitted redmond kisser and I don't give a damn who knows.... but I smell MASSIVE FAIL.

On an up note Windows 7 is so sweet I pour it on my pancakes.

to Anonymouse:

The keyword is 'brand'. Microsoft, as a brand, is doing very badly (thanks in part to Apple's adverts). I believe this is a smart move on part of Microsoft, but they need to be careful and ensure that they set the right expectations. The worst thing to happen would be that Microsoft spends millions to setup these stores, and customers expect that the "Windows Gurus" there would help them remove viruses, find drivers, etc. They should promise what they can, and set the right expectations.

Disclaimer: I am a MS employee, but not part of any of the retail initiative. As such, I have no knowledge of what Microsoft is trying to accomplish with the retail initiative.

This is going to be very interesting and likely quite entertaining. I can see the typical store now...

One wall full of Xboxes and Zunes. Another wall full of Microsoft mice. The third wall full of boxes of Windows 7 and other bloatware. The middle full of tables with desktops and laptops exhibiting rich functionality and seamless operation providing joyful elation washing over the love-struck shoppers as they experience the beautifully smooth integration of the sweet "Windows 7 Service Pack 2 Premier Business Version for Vista Upgrade, Enterprise License Edition".

And about one-third of the machines exhibit the Blue Screen of Death (or whatever color du jour is most popular at the time).

Across the back is the copy of the Apple Genius Bar... "Microsoft Wizards". Approximately 98.76% of the time, their advice is to "reformat your PC and reinstall Windows". All for only $29.95 per hour of consulting time.

And the gaping hole in the side wall? Oh, that's just the hole made by a flying chair when a shopper was caught doing a Google search from one of the demo PCs.

Hahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Here would be an interesting experiment:

Open a Microsoft store directly across the aisle from an Apple store in a mall, and compare the traffic between the two.

@Anonymous:
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Thanks for your honesty in regards to your employment.
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Im thinking that this is a clever move (talking about MS retail stores). Look at the UK, with the current recession, landlords/property owners are desperate (IMO) to make what money they can. What better idea in these times than to open up a store , that will add as a reminder and advertisement of Microsofts products?
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By having Microsoft on the highstreet IMO you are reinforcing to the average consumer that Microsoft is the only product you should consider, and Id expect any sales reps inside to be well briefed on FUD in order to counter any "renegade alternative" OS/product.
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I think its a given that Microsoft is more than capable of riding out the current credit crisis. If they can do this whilst having a highstreet presence, I think its a very clever idea.
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Just imagine, promotional competitions pre software release? Press, publicity, gifts ;) and all manner of enticements at local Microsoft stores near you. (IMO)

They will be called Urban BloatFarms and the big draw will be that you will be able to experience the new BSODs first hand.

They will be open for about six months and then quietly close. In total, six people will have visited them.

@mgo:

Um once M$ get's WM6.5 and W7 out, you might be surprised. For one, it's likely that M$ will include products from any number of 3rd party vendors like Dell, HP, and the plethora of smart phone manufacturers. Plus, at least in the PC segment, M$ will be able to cherry pick the best products from the entire Windows eco system, which will provide extremely good alternatives to Apple products for a lot less money in many cases.

In a down economy, Apple is the most at risk with consumers moving away from Apple's more expensive products. Certainly, there is no guarantee this strategy will work, but it does suggest M$ may be getting serious about getting deeper into the design of hardware such as cell phones and laptops. If at the very least, it will show that M$ is committed to the consumer segment more in things like cell phones.

Finally, I think most people willing to give M$ their just dues are going to be very happy with WM6.5, Zune services, My Phone, and the smart phone apps market and will demonstrate M$ new commitment to Joe Consumer in terms of smart phones.

I am skeptical. Sure, they could open a store tomorrow, but would it ever be profitable? The stores would be more of an embassy than a retail store.
.
It's interesting to say the least. But, in any case I would probably still not buy directly from MS anyway (given the choice), unless they added some serious incentives.

@JM :

I'm a lifelong M$ Fanb0i.

I'll be there opening day. And while I agree with you that this will NEVER be profitable... THEY NEED an Embassy. Vista tarnished them so badly even I looked at Linux.... for a second.... then ran screaming back to my Vista machine... which runs nicely after SP1.

@Jay
Im sure you are a very honest and straight forward poster.
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Although I dont agree with your take on phones, zune etc, I respect your opinion.
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What I would like to ask you though is why do you use the word "M$"?
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Ive seen this before, when people are trying to imply that they do not like Microsoft. You seem to be championing the MS cause (which is fine) so why do you also imply a dislike of Microsoft by using $?
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If you do infact dislike Microsoft, why is that? You seem very happy with the direction the firm is taking and seem to be supporting future product releases.
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I hope you will forgive me for thinking that someone could try to use this tactic to suggest to readers that whilst they dislike Microsoft they support the products, a sort of claim to impartiality if you will.
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I hope you can clear this matter up for me, as you are one of the rare people with a proMS viewpoint that is able to post coherently and without trying to cause offense.
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and on a final note:
quote "Apple is the most at risk with consumers moving away from Apple's more expensive products"
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Agree (in respect of being at risk, as I think Microsoft is far more able to survive the economic crisis than Apple), but then thats not happening, is it? If Im not mistaken figures show Apple profits are up, compared to the (IMO) less than pleasing Microsoft figures. Without mentioning the L word, even people with a pro-MS opinion have openly admitted to Apple taking away custom from Microsoft.

Quote "then ran screaming back to my Vista machine... which runs nicely after SP1."
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Im pleased Microsoft finally gave you the functionality you needed.
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What I would ask you is, are you considering upgrading to 7? and if as I said earlier SP1 has sorted out all the issues and made it a great platform, what are the benefits of a 7 upgrade?
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Forgive me if Im a little dubious about your Linux revelation, since youve failed to mention which distro, and what made you so frightened. Having the experiences of someone new to Linux is very interesting for me, since I expect I am now oblivious to changes that may frighten off new users.
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It would be nice if you were not one of the "convenient" posters who come here once, make a sweeping remark and then never return.

Goblin :

Ubuntu 8.04

Didn't care for it. Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Plus a lot of the apps I thought I could live without..... turns our I couldn't.

I'm 42. Been using windows since 3.1
I guess you could say I grew up on it.

And I'm not going to upgrade to 7. I'm going to buy a new Laptop with it. (As long as the final release works as well as the beta) My gaming PC is FINALLY running stably after months of blue-screens. Even SLI is working. (And I don't have to dual boot xp anymore) You haven't lived until you've seen crysis at max resolution with a smooth fast framerate. I'm not changing a damned thing. Vista as it shipped was the most horribubble experience of my computing life. SP1 and better driver support from NVidia have salved my pain... but If I do upgrade to 7 on my gaming-rig it won't be until after it's first service pack.

I will say this... I'm a dying breed. A hardcore gamer who builds his own PC's with best of class components, and accepts only the highest quality in graphics. So why didn't I just stay on XP? I run with 8 gigs of memory. Vista 64 can use that. XP 32 bit can't. And after 7 years I'm sick of XP.
Lastly I run at user level. Vista's UAC knows when to elevate things while XP requires the runas command and has mixed results.

Why didn't I stay with Ubuntu? UI just felt WRONG. No start menu. OpenOffice didn't fit the bill either. And before you say it's free... My copy of Office 07 was given to me free. And honestly I'd pay good money for Access, Excel, One Note and Groove. Windows is a bug heavy, bloated, malware infested jungle. But it's home.

@Goblin:
Re: "...Having the experiences of someone new to Linux is very interesting for me..."

I am starting to view the various operating systems as different countries.

Some people are born, are raised, and die having never visited another country. They may express general distrust or hatred for those of other countries. Or they may express a longing to visit but not have the time or means. Or they may not even care at all, finding everything they want and need close to home.

Some people visit another country. Upon noticing that it's different, they may express a disdain, mistrust, or even hatred for it (the so-called "ugly American tourist" syndrome). Or they may get along well enough but can't wait to get back home and never miss that other country at all. Or they may relish the newness and difference; they may learn new traditions and ideas, and they may even start to actually prefer many aspects of the new country to their own. Some may even feel every bit as comfortable in one country as another regardless of where they were born and raised.

By the same token, so go the citizens of Windows, Mac, and Linux.

Or software can be viewed as a language.

Windows is like French in Britain's court of William the Conqueror. It's the defacto standard language of law and commerce, and it is spoken everywhere that's important.

The open-source ecosystem that is built on top of Linux and the FSF is like the English language. During this same period, it is spoken only by the lower classes. There are many dialects, each developing fundamental differences from each other, and yet somehow all are still classified as English. English borrows words and ideas from many different languages, especially from French since French is the defacto standard of the country.

But while French is controlled by government bodies and is kept strictly pure and focused, English is given no such protection. It is free to adapt, change, and flow at will. Often, in several different directions (dialects) at the same time. It's adherents are the lower classes, shut out from government and major commerce. BUT..... the open-source nature of English means that its unfettered development is its strength, not its weakness.

And after a long period of development, change, growth, being laughed at or ignored, it... surprise, surprise, it eventually replaces French as the language of Britain.

What's yet another money-losing initiative among friends? Since taking over, Ballmer is batting 1000 in terms of screw-ups and duds. Timing? Everyone knows that depressions are great times to enter retail -- leases are cheap and you can pay the staff diddly.

Besides, it's only shareholder equity they're squandering. Woohoo!

Wow!!! We'll get to meet the shills. In real life!!

In a nightmare I can visualize what the MS retail store will look like: Along one wall will be refurbished XBOX360's, and on the other wall will be the full boxed versions of Vista that never could quite sell. In the center, will be a sign that reads: "Vista and Xbox360 bundle sale, called, Red Ring of Death (RROD) meats the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) Sale." And then I wake up. in a cold sweat, and say, hey, its only a bad dream.

"Yes, folks, Microsoft is finally going into the retail business"

Huh? MS has been in the retail business for well over a decade. Even had there own store in SF once.

@AverageInternetLowlife
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After all the sillynes we've had here, IMO your posts represents an honest held belief in Microsoft products, and thats great.
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Ubuntu 8.04, is probably the best distro to go for if you are new to Linux, and since youve found its not to your requirements, thats fine. The points you make about gaming are valid, at the moment. But since Wine is playing SOME of the most recent games and developers are now beginning to keep Wine in mind for entertainment titles I think in future it will be less of an issue for a windows gamer.
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When you said about ubuntu not having a start menu, im not sure what you mean. Currently running gnome on this rig, Im looking at a start menu, which is almost exactly the same as Windows users will be accustomed to. I can only assume that this further highlights your point that you really are happier with Windows, thats no bad thing.
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Quote "who builds his own PC's with best of class components, and accepts only the highest quality in graphics."
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You are not alone! Whilst you build for games, I build for my demoscene dev (and if you dont mind me saying, alot of the code Ive been involved with would challenge even your system!)
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I hope this post doesnt come across as patronizing, as I really appreciate having a discussion with someone who has an honest held belief in the products they use (even if they are not the same products as mine) I really hope you stay and post since it would be nice to balance the general view here out with honest posts....
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BTW when you said you were 42, Im rapidly approaching 40, and Im beginning to think the average age here (except for the posters who behave like children) is around 25+ (just my guess) so youre definately not alone in any respect!
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Off topic a second (since youre 42), which side of the fence did you sit on during the ST/Amiga wars of the early 90's?
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@Philosopher - Great analogy!

@Jeremy, Chips and Philosopher
All three of you mentioned the BSOD. I'd just like to ask when you last experienced it (or witnessed it on someone else's computer if you don't regularly use Windows).

The last time I saw the BSOD was over three years ago. My motherboard was dying. I saw that horrible blue screen because of a hardware fault - nothing was wrong with the software. The time before that... I can't remember. Almost certainly not since moving from Windows 3.1.

The blue screen of death is one of those things that people still associate with Windows, but I've used a Windows computer pretty much daily for years and worked in offices with people who do the same and it's been a very long time since I saw it.

I don't know if retail stores are a good plan or not. I've not seen the business models. I don't know what the plan is to approach this idea. It won't directly relate to my role. So I'll watch with interest and hope it works out well. Like most business ventures, it has the potential to be really great and the potential to be a disaster and the potential to be anywhere in the middle.

@Jess Meats
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I know you didnt ask me. But in my instance, the last BSOD was yesterday at work. The BSOD followed a message regarding running low on system memory (strange considering I was doing nothing out the ordinary) shortly after the message, the hardrive light went into spasms, and then was quickly followed by the BSOD.
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Prior to that was monday, where I was visiting council offices, on the information display in the reception area, the BSOD was proudly displayed.
and prior to that would have been at work the week before.
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Im sure some will claim this is a pro-Linux lie, so Ill leave it there.
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For you information though Jess, our firm will not be considering 7, and is not at all happy with Vista.
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I think the BSOD is very much hit and miss on many rigs. Ive previously had a Vista installation at home, and I think I only saw it once. My neighbour reports hes yet to see it on Vista, that being said, theres sites dedicated to people taking photographs over all the world of BSOD's so its appearance is more frequent than uncommon.

@Goblin:

No. I do not have a dislike for M$. The reason I use M$ is mainly directed at fans of open source, who typically use M$ as a negative connotation regarding their monopolistic practices. I, on the other hand, like to think of M$ as one of the most profitable companies around today and one that embodies what it means to compete in a capitalistic market. So, my use of M$ is endearing rather than putting the company down. In other words, MS has every right to find ways to make money, so I like to use the M$ has a sign that they are a for profit company versus the quasi-socialists slant that one can equate with open source.

@Jess Meats
My new work laptop was being connected to the work server running Windows Server 2003 and 3 times it blue screened just trying to connect and use the programs on the thing. The tech said it was a CI.DLL error blue screen and it was related to my microsoft mouse. So we unplugged it and then restarted , then finished the connection setup and go everything running then re connected the mouse.

@Goblin
Im an old Amiga user, first had an Amiga 500, then got the external hard drive when they were on sale for $500, cheap at that price lol. Then upgraded the memory to a full 1MB by buying the 500kb upgrade kit while it was being sold cheap. Then i upgraded to an Amiga that had the integrated keyboard and internal hard drive that looked like the old commodore 64 type thing. I didnt like that type but i loved the newer Workbench OS. Also it had the 6020 motorola chip which was faster than the 6000 chip in the 500. I got into all the Amiga manuals and the DevPac assembler that was like hundreds of dollars then. I quickly tired of that and got into Amos when that came out and really made lots of animations and graphics programs that you couldnt do with an ordinary PC. Best computer ever i think, wont happen again but, it was entirely and enthusiasts thing for nerdy geeky computer people. lol.

@Jay
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A simple "no" would have sufficed.
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That being said Im pleased youve cleared that up. Of course its silly to suggest that Microsoft shouldnt make money, thats not the point and nobody can argue that Microsoft has been very good at it.
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I am unhappy with the way IMO you almost liken open source to a movement of people who are blind to everything else of the "evil" corporate world.
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I support proprietary, afterall for a good few years I made a good living with Delphi (and currently with MS products at work) as an in house coder. I purchase proprietary products, but there seems to be a common misconception that should anyone support Open Source software, they are instantly against all that is proprietary. Id say in most cases thats wrong. As people have rightfully pointed out, not all software solutions can be found to the satisfaction of every user within the realms of opensource.
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For me the fact I use Open source software is irrelevant. I use the best tools for the job. That means for me its a Linux OS, ABIword and a plethora of other titles. If at some point in the future I find that a proprietary solution is better for me, then I will go with that.
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I only take exception to one other point of yours: "embodies what it means to compete in a capitalistic market"
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So you think the allegations that have been leveled against Microsoft are justified because its competing in a capalistic market place in the same way as any other company does? This is the part of Microsoft I dont like, not the fact its made money, not the fact that it has greatest market penetration, its the allegations of how it conducts itself that I have a problem with.
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Did we see Commodore or Atari acting in this way in the 1990's?
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Infact can you honestly say that whilst yes Microsoft had made itself very profitable, it hasnt harmed innovation of smaller firms who have been trampled underfoot by the corporate giant Microsoft? Are you really suggesting that there should only be Microsoft, no choice, no variety, no freedom? That to me sounds not like corporate capitalism, but corporate communism. Please correct me if you think Im wrong.

I'm aware that I'm going to be getting a skewed perspective on Microsoft. People wouldn't come to work here if they'd had bad experiences with Microsoft's technology. This means that the people I see on a daily basis are those that like the technology enough to want to work with it.

So I can't be sure whether the BSOD is a case of the reputation continuing after the problem is fixed or if I've just been extremely fortunate.

Those websites showing BSOD pictures have been around for ages. I once heard someone use the phrase, "The web never forgets," and it's true; those pictures will stick around for a long while. Even if there was never another appearence of BSOD from now on, those photos would stay up and people would still be able to see them.

Hey Microsoft, here's a tip:

Instead of talking like this: "We’re also working hard to transform the PC and Microsoft buying experience at retail by improving the articulation and demonstration of the Microsoft innovation and value proposition so that it’s clear, simple and straightforward for consumers everywhere."

ditch the "4th person perpendicular Redmond-speak" and talk to us in plain English:

"We have some really great products that have not been promoted well. Here's our chance to give customers hand-on experience."

There...that better?

Don't worry Jess, here are some kernel panic screenshots for you. I do not think old errors have any factor in the public perception of Microsoft. Most of the bad feeling comes from the "my computer is slow today" routine, the bad security and the weird popups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_panic

As far as a shop goes, I cannot see many people going out of their way to go and demo a Microsoft mouse, or even Surface. It's not like they could afford it.

I think this is a wonderful idea. Provided Microsoft wants to waste a bunch of money. Maybe they can get Seinfield to promote it. This begs the question, has Microsoft ever had an original idea? What are they an Apple wannabe now? The best marketing in the world will not change the fact that they no longer produce quality products. Being a quasi-legal monopoly has caused Microsoft to lose all its edge. They are irrelevant going the way of other former giants who became too comfortable. All I can say is good riddens.

Since no one has yet brought this one up, I couldn't resist:

http://gizmodo.com/5035456/blue-screen-of-death-strikes-birds-nest-during-opening-ceremonies-torch-lighting

@Jess Meats:
Re: "Even if there was never another appearence of BSOD from now on, those photos would stay up and people would still be able to see them."

You are correct. I haven't seen a BSOD for quite a long time, and don't believe I've ever seen one on XP with at least SP1 (based on one system at home, and watching other systems at work). BDOS was common mainly with NT systems, according to my (perhaps faulty) recollection.

Likewise, the following photo has stayed up for a long time even though there never has been another appearance of it:

www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/gatesmug1.html

Oops! Typo in my previous post. In the last line of the second paragraph, I meant BSOD (Blue Screen of Death) and not BDOS (Bill's Dead Operating System).

:-)

Off topic a second (since youre 42), which side of the fence did you sit on during the ST/Amiga wars of the early 90's?
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Amiga.

An excellent platform. I was saddened to see it go.

And btw.... Remember the Coleco Adam?

THAT thing was sadly my first computer.

@Average
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Amiga here also! If youre ever interested in looking at an entirely new OS, check out AROS, its based on AmigaOS.
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Coleco never really made it to these shores, in the 8bits (as I believe Coleco was) we really only had:
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Amstrad CPC 464
Commodore 64
Spectrum 48/128
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@Kitkat
BTW - Are you aware that AMOS matured into Darkbasic on the PC and is still going strong (apparently)?
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@Everyone
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Since the BSOD has been mentioned numerous times here, I think its only fair I link to the Amiga version:
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http://haftbar.de/wp-content/guru-meditation_error.gif

Interesting article on Microsoft being the "follower" again (in relation to its retail stores)
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http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10163563-16.html?tag=mostDis;dis
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Quote article "Microsoft does a great job of executing against others' innovations. It is not an innovator, however, as David Wheeler called out back in 2001."

My first computer was a Commodore 64. I learned my first program on this machine.

Looks like MS is pining for the good old days of brick and mortar. When you sell at a retail store you control what the customer hears. No pesky customers pointing out the bugs in your products like on amazon.com. Looks like they are failing on the web and hoping to carve out a niche old school.

Will probably piss off all their current retail partners. But I don't really mind them spending their money doing this. Should create some jobs if nothing else.

When they open the store, one of the first questions I'm going to ask them. How do I sign up for their "free laptop program"?

If they act clueless, I'll show them some of the links that were previously posted here. Surely this will convince them that I am qualified for the "free laptop program". In fact everyone should ask about that free laptop program when they stop in the store.

I also read comments that some where able to buy heavily discounted software at the "company store". Since this is a "company store" surely we could pick up Office for $10 like some others did...right?

Im wondering if this is the beginning of the pay as you go patent.
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On my site a while ago I covered this patent, the idea being I believe that the user will get a heavily discounted PC stuffed with MS products which you will pay for on a basis of useage. What better way to push out this new concept?

The store will be beige
I'm not going

I'm no expert, but I think the vast majority of BSODs that occur are the result of poorly coded drivers from third party developers, and hardware glitches. BSODs are in fact the OS's step to protect the system from damage by bad drivers and hardware problems. The nonsense ramblings of the MS haters that BSODs result because the OS is defective, is just ignorant. Posts that focus on stuff like this to discredit MS, only come across like childish temper tantrums of a 2 year old. Besides that, I have to wonder why so many MS haters are so involved on this and other MS topic blogs, don't you have anything better to do with your time? To those who fit this description, your posts are not credible, so what is the point of your non credible, worthless efforts posting?

There was me thinking Apple had the fashionable products. I was wrong, very wrong.
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Microsoft may be proving that whatever Apple can do in its stores, it can do better, "hipper" and downright trendy.
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Whats this idea? Well its rumored that Microsoft is going to having a very famous and lovable character from our pasts to welcome you to the Microsoft stores. A character so sorely missed, he will bring customers flocking in their droves....
Who is is?
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http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/will-clippy-be-a-greeter-at-microsofts-new-stores/
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God help us. I thought we'd seen the last of him. Hes about as welcome as one of Ballmers shirts in your washing machine.

@John Stuart,

Re: "I'm no expert, but"

It didn't stop you anyway! Wheee!

Re: "Posts that focus on stuff like this to discredit MS, only come across like childish temper tantrums of a 2 year old."

But not nearly as childish as throwing a chair across one's office, now is it???

Re: "Besides that, I have to wonder why so many MS haters are so involved on this and other MS topic blogs"

The blog is "Microsoft Watch", not "Microsoft Worship".

Re: "don't you have anything better to do with your time?"

We Linux-based developers have do do _something_ to pass the time while the Windows-based developers plod along playing catch-up!

Re: "so what is the point of your non credible, worthless efforts posting?"

You'd be surprised at all the entertaining idiots who crawl out of the woodwork, slinging flowery words wrapped in shoddy grammar! I never thought that the Holy Church of Microsoft was on such shaky ground that it needs a constant stream of fumble-fingered zealots to defend them.

Quote John "'m no expert, but I think the vast majority of BSODs that occur are the result of poorly coded drivers from third party developers"
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Thats right, its never Microsofts fault.
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Quote John "The nonsense ramblings of the MS haters that BSODs result because the OS is defective, is just ignorant."
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Please quote where you have seen that stated. Windows IMO is defective for so many reasons, most notably its exploitable code, the BSOD IMO is the least of its worries. Although this BSOD of yours has already made an appearance on Windows 7 beta allegedly, but then we use the Microsoft rule there: If Win7 beta gets praise then it shows how good the system is. If Win7 gets bad press, say its only a beta.
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Qoute John "Besides that, I have to wonder why so many MS haters are so involved on this and other MS topic blogs"
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I think you will find the words there should be "most MS topic blogs" and maybe the answer is there has been a change in public opinion?
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Quote "Posts that focus on stuff like this to discredit MS, only come across like childish temper tantrums of a 2 year old. Besides that, I have to wonder why so many MS haters are so involved on this and other MS topic blogs, don't you have anything better to do with your time? To those who fit this description, your posts are not credible, so what is the point of your non credible, worthless efforts posting?"
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LOL. You say childish? I think you will find it is those with the pro-MS opinion who have resorted to: impersonation, vulgar, insulting, homophobic and sexist behavior. To the extent that Joe Wilcox has had to delete their posts.
If the opinions which you refer to are so worthless, why do you feel the need to point that out? Isnt it obvious to everyone?
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Thanks for your input. Id be very careful at casting the first stone in the future if you are trying to challenge the way alternative view to Microsoft conducts itself.

To those who deride others as being mindless Microsoft haters simply because we don't blindly worship every move and every word issued from Gates and Ballmer, I would reiterate Goblin's statement that Linux is not about low cost, but about freedom from Microsoft.

And if that sounds combative, it's no more combative that refusing to put all your money into a Bernie Madoff investment, even if everyone else is doing it and is telling you that you are a fool for not doing it. Asking the hard questions, being suspicious, these are not combative or hateful tactics. Rather, they are just examples of the constant vigilance that is needed to keep your freedom. For example, see:

www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090211213637935

"The Complaint, on page 3, tells us that AT&T wished to license BSD to use in its development of Unix System V, and that it thereby obtained the right to sublicense BSD, which it did to, among others, Santa Cruz Operation, who had failed, according to the Regents, to give the University proper credit. Another sublicensee was Intel, who, the complaint states, failed to give the University proper credit in its "IBCS2". Doesn't this help us to understand how, when SCO showed the code it claimed Linux was infringing at SCOforum 2003, some of it turned out to be BSD 4.3 code?"

And Microsoft's behind-the-scenes investment in SCOG and their push of BayStar to fund SCOG only increases the suspicion that Microsoft is the one full of hatred--hatred for anything that doesn't pour money into Microsoft. And using Apple or Linux instead of Windows is not an act of hatred, even if Microsoft and its blind worshippers hate those to use non-Microsoft platforms.

Even dictators cherish freedom, though it's their freedom they cherish and NOT the freedom of their citizens. For example, see "Cuba launches Gentoo Linux distro" at:

desktoplinux.com/news/NS8789697417.html

"Yet, the government has come to believe that Windows could be a threat because it believes U.S. security agencies have access to Microsoft codes, says the story. Plus, the trade embargoes make it difficult to get legal, supported copies of the software for regular updates, says Reuters."

Philosopher :

" And using Apple or Linux instead of Windows is not an act of hatred, even if Microsoft and its blind worshippers hate those to use non-Microsoft platforms."
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Observation

From what I recall...MSFT owns shares in Apple. Correct me if I am wrong.

If this is correct, then MSFT owns a piece of their "competition". So MSFT's real competition is really Linux.

Using this assumption, this why it seems the MSFT shills seem to bash Linux far more than they do Apple. And this despite Apple having a bigger share than Linux...

@Ralph,

Re: "From what I recall..."

Yes, I do believe that you are correct. And not only do they own shares of Apple, but they also sell applications for Mac. Including MS Office for Mac.

Though a .doc file created on the Mac is not always fully compatible with MS Word for Windows. For two .doc files created on MS Word for Mac (OK, not a large sample size!), OOo for Linux yields the same formatting errors as MS Word for Windows when each tries to open the same MS Word for Mac .doc file.

Re: "So MSFT's real competition is really Linux."

In a way, yes. I'm not really much of a student of macro economics (and neither is the vast bulk of the Wall Street goons, and it didn't hurt their incomes any...), so it's hard to tell if Linux is truly a competitor. In the marketing/commercial sense, Linux isn't even a company or product but rather an ecosystem and enabler for RedHat, Collobra, and others. It's like saying that Freedom is a competitor to Microsoft. Is alternative a better term, or am I splitting hairs?

Re: "MSFT shills seem to bash Linux far more than they do Apple."

Maybe its similar to how dictators know they can control companies and industries, and reserve their worst punishments to the physically powerless students, old men and women, and others who spread the word of freedom and open thought. Because MSFT shills aren't stupid. They know that freedom is a vastly more powerful threat than any one company can ever be.

And maybe that's the better word: Threat. Linux may or may not be really competing with Microsoft, but it IS a threat to Microsoft.

Your thoughts, Ralph?

@Philosopher

Yes, that is a better example of what Linux is to Microsoft...a threat. But open source apps are a much bigger threat to MSFT than Linux itself. For one simple reason, they can run on Windows. And that is something that MSFT can't do anything about.
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For just about nearly every expensive and proprietary Office type software, likely there is a Free Open Source equivalent. Any company can adopt its use and not change any operating system.
________

Open Office is a prime example and Firefox is currently the most successful example. Linux server is also a threat to MSFT, as a company can save licensing fees by not having to pay client access licenses and server licenses and still run XP on their corporate desktops..if needed.

__________

I kinda smile when I see here that the shills say Linux only has a "0.83% share" and it is a "insignificant desktop OS". Let them think that, really its OK. We know that figure is in dispute at best.

_______

I have read reports that netbook sales in Europe has Linux at a 40% share. And what about the recent article saying ..."Microsoft wants an anti-Linux chief". IF that is the case, then how "insignificant" is Linux really? Why would Microsoft care about Linux...unless of course it WAS a threat...and that article speaks volumes of where their mindset really is.
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And we have the case of whole countries mandating open source or Linux. Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, and even China has their own Linux, "Red Flag Linux". I read reports that France is looking to move to open source. The City of Munich is all open source and Linux. And now we have yet another report, this time from Brazil that there will be 350,000 school desktops that will be Linux based.

http://education.zdnet.com/?p=2168

Yet with all these advances, Linux is only still 0.83%?

_________
The shill game plan has gotten more sophisticated. Now there people who comment on certain blogs who say they use Linux and prefer it. But then go on to trash the OS and its users!
Kinda shows how desperate the other side is getting.
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One last thought, this mindset of Windows verses Linux...the analogy is unto a car.

One can go from point A to point B in a expensive vehicle with high maintenance and fuel costs. Or one can go from point A to point B in a modest vehicle with low maintenance and fuel costs.

Both get to the same place, one costs much more to operate than the other. Computers and operating systems have the same analogy, both Windows and Linux get on the internet, do wireless, play videos and MP3 tunes and do email and everything else. One costs a lot of money and the other costs nothing. Both do pretty much the same essential things.

Why pay extra for something when you don't have to. Apparently a growing number of people are asking the same questions..........

Re: "Why pay extra for something when you don't have to. Apparently a growing number of people are asking the same questions.........."

Yes. Not quite so simplistic as the "something-for-nothing" way. But you are onto something important.

Why pay and pay and pay and pay to replace what already works just to fix bugs that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Why pay and pay and pay for new features you don't need just because what works for you and what you've already paid and paid for is being withdrawn. Why pay for Windows 3.1 because it's robust and cool, and then pay for Windows 98 because it's reliable, unlike 3.1, and then pay for Windows ME because it's reliable, unlike Windows 98, and then pay for Windows XP, because it's reliable unlike Windows ME, and then pay for Vista because it's reliable unlike Windows XP, and then pay for Windows 7 because it's reliable unlike Windows Vista, and... with no end in sight to the greedy payments to, and dashed promises from, the protection racket's goons.

Re: "But open source apps are a much bigger threat to MSFT than Linux itself. For one simple reason, they can run on Windows. And that is something that MSFT can't do anything about."

Ah, cricket, you are either very young or have a very short memory. There was a time when the leading Word Processor was WordPerfect, the leading Spreadsheet was Lotus 123, and the leading PC Database was AshtonTate dBase in its various iterations. And then MS started its ruthless campaign of using Windows Update to "break" competitive products and force them to constantly re-write code so it would work on the next "security update" to Windows. It took them about 3 years to kill all competition and to basically end innovation in the area of popular "office or work" applications.

And we went from very fast software on very slow machines to very bloated and very slow software on very fast (and expensive) machines. We went from coding tight in Assembler and machine language to spaghetti code in "C" and millions of lines that can't possibly be debugged in anyone or any groups lifetime.

Anyone who believes that Microsoft has any incentive or desire to end the endless Security Update routine doesn't learn from history and is completely doomed to repeat it. Microsoft will never release code that does not contain security holes because the constant rejiggering of their kernal code is what prevents VC funding of competitive desktop software. The knowledge that your potential competition not only CAN but has proved in the past a willingness TO break any competitors software that dares into an area that Microsoft covets is a true embargo on real innovation particularly as long as Windows continues to hold 70-80% market share on desktops.

So anyone that codes anything innovative to run on top of Windows does so at their own much more than marginal risk. The real threat to Microsoft is and has been the Web where browser based applications are a real threat to the desktop (ergo lets break the Web Apps with the latest release of IE) and Apple, Linux/Unix (which by the way are actually all subsets or supersets of each other) in the OS arena.

The reason Vista has been such a disaster for Microsoft is that the Market (ie You and I) finally stood up and have forced Microsoft to continue support for XP, and/or forced them to drop even the make believe that Vista was successful and moved thousands of very large enterprise customers to rethink the Microsoft Tax they were paying on every PC. Windows 7 better work for Microsoft and recapture the hearts and minds of the Enterprise IT departments or Microsoft is hearing the sound of the Waterfall just ahead that their market share is about to fall off of.

As to opening stores the subject of this post, this is another in a long line of extraordinarily stupid moves by Microsoft. Does anyone here believe that a Microsoft Store's "Genius's" will ever do anything but "try" to address the long line of customers with broken software and PCs that no longer work as fast as they once did. It will be a backup and reformat desk that swallows the store.

Re: my last paragraph - That may also be the Ten Ton Bad Publicity Straw that breaks the Elephant's Back. Imagine the news reports when lines of people are outside the Microsoft Store waiting in line to "please just get my PC to work".

And then do you close the stores? Wow, talk about a Hobson's Choice. Close the stores and openly acknowledge what has always been so that Microsoft does not care about their customers or Leave the stores open and eat the bad publicity of the "Real Microsoft Lifestyle".

Re: my last paragraph - That may also be the Ten Ton Bad Publicity Straw that breaks the Elephant's Back. Imagine the news reports when lines of people are outside the Microsoft Store waiting in line to "please just get my PC to work".

And then do you close the stores? Wow, talk about a Hobson's Choice. Close the stores and openly acknowledge what has always been so that Microsoft does not care about their customers or Leave the stores open and eat the bad publicity of the "Real Microsoft Lifestyle".

@Granville Alley:

Re: "Re: "But open source apps are a much bigger threat to MSFT than Linux itself. For one simple reason, they can run on Windows. And that is something that MSFT can't do anything about."

Ah, cricket, you are either very young or have a very short memory."

Well, I think you and Goblin are both right, except for your chirpy cricket crack. ;-)

Microsoft has openly invited the open source world to innovate, but innovate on top of Windows. But the funny thing about that statement is that open source has been innovating on top of Windows for decades. Starting with TCP/IP and Berkeley-style sockets (which were perverted into the abysmal WinSock implementation) back in the Windows 3.X days.

Today, Firefox provides a popular and credible standards-based alternative to IE, and OpenOffice provides an increasingly popular and credible alternative to expensive MS Office suites (which are far too complicated for the so-called Joe Sixpack and Grandma market anyway).

Open source on top of Windows is not a direct threat to Windows; it actually gives Windows more credibility. Imagine if Windows had stubbornly refused to support TCP/IP and stuck with NetBios and NetBeui (or whatever are the correct terms for those tinker-toy kiddie network playthings). Goodbye, Windows.

BUT.... As Goblin points out, open source innovating on top of Windows is a threat to Microsoft, not to Windows. Windows and Linux are just inanimate things and can't be threatened (or else, don't care, nor do they change their behaviors if threatened). But open source levels the playing field, and a level playing field is a threat to the Microsoft monopoly. Windows isn't the only big money-maker; MS Office and other MS-proprietary software are significant contributors to the Borg (aka Bill's Organization!).

Linux just provides an alternate place to go to more smoothly run all those open source applications, should one wish to be free from Windows on one or more systems. But the combination of the continued market clamor for XP combined with erosion (however slight at the moment) of MS Office market share is a distinct and powerful threat to the Monopoly.