I think you are jumping to too many assumptions here. Yes, it is sad to see people go and I am sure it was a difficult decision. But your story pretty much insults those who are still at Microsoft. We do not have any details, whether some of those persons possibly left voluntarily or might be relocated to other divisions. Evangelism is something that comes really easy these days - there are over a billion Windows users, I am sure there are still some left. Microsoft makes great products, it has a great community of users outside of the Company who blog about their products and services that is just as professional as what you would get from a MSDN blog. Also, Microsoft MVP's are the largest group of envangelist outside of Microsoft too, they actually are customers and interact with fellow customers. So, I think you are bit too, over anxious about this situation Joe and you pressed the 'Post' button a bit too quick.

Joe Wilcox say:
"At times like these, evangelists are more effective than any marketing campaign."
----------------------------------------------------
I disagree, respectfully. Evangelists, and bloggers with "free" laptops, were the main marketing force behind Vi$ta, and where did that get them? How about a case of classic fail?

It not about evangelists or marketing this time Joe. They failed because the product, Vista, was not better than what it tried to replace, XP. It also did not have the value in it over XP. All the evangelists in the world cannot sell a lemon.

While its hopeful that M$ has learned a lesson, and Seven will be a better product, still, where is the value over XP, or free Linux for that matter? Sadly, so far there is none that I can see. But perhaps, bugs will be fixed, and therefore, at least for those stuck with Vista, Seven might be an improvement, and they won't need an army of evangelists to sell it.

Why pay evangelists to sell Seven anyway, as its forced on users (MS Tax) through the OEM installs anyway. MS should fire em all, and save lots of bucks, same with advertising. Thats the power of lockin and monopoly bullying. As far as the Zune, or Brick, its a goner, why waste more good money chasing bad?

I agree with this post, but am surprised that there isn't any advice on what MS should cut instead.
Out of interest - although I'm sure to receive silence in reply - what staff / divisions / sections should get the cut?

When a company spends $8 billion a year on R&D, you might think they would have something to show for that investment after 5-10 years. Microsoft's ROI for all this research spending is pitiful, almost laughable. Other companies in the industry run circles around Ballmer and his crew while spending a tiny fraction of their "R&D" budget.

So what is really going on in Redmond and what is all that money really used for? The board of directors needs to layoff one more employee - Steve Ballmer. The sooner they do it, the better.

WinMo is toliet paper? that's ridiculous friend. 20-25M people are buying these phones every year. more than apple, more than android. more than rim. no doubt MSFT had a head start - a good one. no doubt they have work to do. Better UI, and better consumer experiences. So many assets available that are under utilized.

The platform needs focus, vision, and a better management team. I understand this to be changing or have changed in the last 12-18 months.

The platform definitely needs more investment. Agreed. But only with better focus, smarter vision and good direciton. Having said that, 5-10% pruning in the team is not a bad thing. Bring in the talent. I left the group 2 years ago when the group was bloated by at least 30% and tons of those without mobile passion.

I disagree simply because the evangelists and sales people weren't doing a good enough job, not all but a lot of them deserved to be fired. MS may have a poor reputation, but that's a reputation as a monopolist, not bad products- people like me who use their services and products together know how good they can be, yet the evangelists never got that across.

Zune for instance should have sold better. Great device, great software, great service- poorly recieved, and that's a shame.

Ive got a really silly idea.
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Why not release solid, reliable and stable products and let those speak for themselves. Did evangelists make the Commodore Amiga one of the most popular home computers in the UK? No!-
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It was said in regards to WinMO "The platform needs focus, vision, and a better management team. I understand this to be changing or have changed in the last 12-18 months.
The platform definitely needs more investment. "
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Id probably agree since Ive documented here my experiences of trying to use it on an MDA mail, however doesnt anyone consider this quote a little wrong? If the company in question was say...Borland, they could be forgiven for lack of investment, focus etc. We are talking Microsoft here, and if, with its resources both in terms of developers and financial it cant get it right, what does that say about Microsoft.
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Its another product on the list of "nearly made it" and in my view an indictment of its general lack of focus. Whilst we can debate the pros of Zune all day, for whatever reason people in the main dont want it.
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Move onto another project Xbox, they had a headstart (of over a year) they had major titles such as PG, Halo and Oblivion, yet even this didnt stop them been upended by Nintendo, when they released their effort.
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Looking at market opinion of Microsoft, could that have been a reason why confidence was placed in BlueRay and Microsoft couldnt convince anyone that HDdvd was a viable future format? or was it simply a case of Microsoft misreading the market, again?
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Theres been valid points made here, even by Andre. I think in Microsofts mission to tell us its products are the best they have distorted the "honest message" which is now looked upon with suspicion whenever someone posts about their experiences with their products.
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Andre touched upon something (I believe unwittingly) which I think is very relevant. There has been many people (including myself) highlighting the issue of free laptops/gifts etc, however is it any different to the mainstream press who receive review copies of products all the time? I dont think the issue of a free laptop is as relevant as someone (like we've seen here) using insult and deception to put a pro-MS point across.
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I think when Mark Shuttleworth refused to belittle Windows 7 (I believe he thought it good) says it all. Linux users dont need to use cheap tactics in order to push the platform, its relies on peoples experience of it to do the advertising for it. Ubuntu 9.04 promises to be smaller, faster, since I personally havent been let down by a Canonical distro, I tend to believe them.
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Reading sections from exhibit 6564 no 5/6/17/104 of Comes V Microsoft, IMO it leaves no doubt about how agressively Microsoft intend to tackle competition and as I was saying to the person who provided those details, "it reads like an IT version of something from Area 51" It almost reads like a war campaign, on a public who should be using Microsoft products because Microsoft says so. (IMO)
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Although I havent seen any documentation yet. I believe the agenda in Microsofts campaign is set to get more agressive and I will explain why.
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During this part of the year, I am sure some people are eagerly awaiting Windows 7. This may be because they are struggling with Vista, or simply that they want a solid version of XP with new features and some flashy visuals (or something else). This is where people will be exposed to other alternatives and where Microsoft can potentially lose customers. Notice how the Vista claims are slowing?
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This is the time when customers who may be unhappy at their treatment by Vista and impatient for something new, may move to an alternative.
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I think its no coincidence that we have seen these betas/leaks/whatever released onto the scene. I think it dangles the juicy worm in front of the user keeping them distracted until the official release (IMO)
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So what Id say to those people is: I do not want to convince you that Linux is a better platform. Why not during this period of pre-Win 7 give Linux a try and find out for yourself? There is no harm, and if you find the myths about linux true then when Windows 7 is released you can be sure you made the right choice staying with Microsoft.
Find yourself a distro at:
http://www.distrowatch.com

I don't agree that MS got rid of the wrong people.

1. Data Center Infrastructure: Perhaps they have a much higher capacity than demand?

2. Electronics & Gizmos: Cut some places, focus more on others.

3. Evangelists: If they get rid of the sort of bozos who hired the firm that hired Jerry Seinfeld, MS is much better without them.

MS is in some ways in a difficult position for a company with more or less matured products. On the one hand they cannot stagnate or that will be the end of them; working against them is the fact that there will not really be anything huge to add to their existing software. Most changes only need to be little fixes or the addition of some small features which most people don't need. With developments in Free and open source software, many highly profitable MS products are reduced to commodity status and MS will be forced to remain competitive by accepting smaller profits. So MS attempted to diversify its interests. That's great - the XBox has become a contender in the games console industry - however, not all attempts at diversification will yield acceptable results and it's best if MS cuts such projects quickly and invests its resources in better ways. Just because MS has a virtual monopoly on many things is no reason for MS to spend its money poorly or to attempt to do so many things that its resources are stretched. The layoffs may be a sign that MS has decided to rethink what it does and try other ideas for success in the future.

Andre. could you maybe provide some to links to your comment of:
"Microsoft makes great products, it has a great community of users outside of the Company who blog about their products and services that is just as professional as what you would get from a MSDN blog."
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Id be very interested to see who you champion as a "blogger of Microsoft products/services"
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In the main I see blogs about peoples bad experiences with Microsoft, Id love for you to balance that with some links by happy customers.
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I hope though you dont mean by happy bloggers people like the user who tried to silence an anti-ms post on your blog. According to the site, the user has no details, has only made one post and surprise, surprise that was to try and counter someone who printed a bad experience with Microsoft products on your blog.
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Still at least Microsoft has managed to finally remove all the spam adverts for Nike Trainers off your site (you should have blogged with Wordpress), and users can now quite easily go back through your posts and see how many comments you had on your blog where people (IMO) are begging for your help with Windows issues.

Quote "That's great - the XBox has become a contender in the games console industry"
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IMO its not "has become a contender" it is "was a contender"
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Unless Im mistaken, even a years headstart couldnt prevent Nintendo from taking the slot of "top dog" from Microsoft. Now it appears (IMO) that with Xbox's failed effort to push HDdvd, Xboxs faulty hardware and the fact that IMO PS3 is far better future proofed (IMO), Xbox cant even settle for 2nd place now.
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Thats how I see it, others may differ. Shame, as I said before I was lucky, I never had any issues with my Xbox 360.

"Imagine Xbox games available for the console, mobile phone and other portable devices."

Writing a game for the XBox is totally different from writing for a portable device. A game that works on the big screen is not necessarily going to work on the small screen. Even if you manage to use the same code, the input method would need to be totally changed.

Developing games for WinMobile would be a nightmare. The device hardware varies so much, it would be next to impossible to develop a decent game for it. The iPhone is easy to develop for because they all have the same sized screen and roughly the same features.

P.S. How is the Zune Insider blog a grassroots campaign? It is staffed by Microsoft employees!

WinMo is toilet paper? Ha. I think that people like to trash it because WinMo isn't as "cool" as an iPHone.

If a small-to-medium sized business is already running Microsoft Exchange... you know, like with Small Business Server... then mobilizing their workforce is unbelievably easy with a Windows Mobile phone. You have true push e-mail at virtually no additional cost, like you would with Blackberry. It's very easy to set up, too.

Most people agree that using an iPhone for any text entry isn't nearly as efficient as a keyboard-based device. iPhone doesn't have that yet, so it comes in second or third to Windows Mobile devices.

You also have a wide variety of Windows Mobile devices. Best of all, you can get additional batteries and even add storage/memory. They also are pretty durable.

The iPhone is very cool. It's slick. It's a joy to use.

I have no experience with S60, so I cannot comment on how that compares.

WinMobile needs a little tweaking and a better browser, and from what we read on the 'net the former is coming and the latter is already available.

Why do i still read this crap?

Chill'n wrote: "WinMo is toliet paper? that's ridiculous friend. 20-25M people are buying these phones every year. more than apple,"

I'm always surprised by people who look at market share as some indicator of a product's success. It makes me think they've never been involved in really running a business.

Fact: Microsoft's WinMo outsold Apple's iPhone in 2008 by 5 million units (18 million to 13 million).

Fact: Revenue-wise, Microsoft makes an average of $11.5 per WinMo license, while Apple makes $500 per iPhone.

So, while Microsoft makes a little over $200 million on WinMo, Apple makes $6.5 billion.

I doubt WinMo makes enough money each year to pay for its department's utility bill, let alone staff. Where does the money for WinMo R&D come from?

WinMo seems less than toilet paper.

Andre says: "Microsoft makes great products, it has a great community of users outside of the Company who blog about their products and services that is just as professional as what you would get from a MSDN blog."

Meanwhile, here on planet Earth, we also have a company called Microsoft, but ours is more interested in cheating (remember Open XML and ISO?) and in obliterating its competition than in offering great products.

Goblin says: "Whilst we can debate the pros of Zune all day, for whatever reason people in the main dont want it."

As for Zune, if Microsoft ever releases software for non-Windows platforms, more people will buy it. Apple wouldn't have sold nearly as many iPods if iTunes had continued to run only on Macs.

Can't say I disagree with these cuts. They've been cutting back on the envangalists for a long time now. The fanatical promotion of .Net, when it first came out, really killed them. They were just too annoying to let in the door anymore. Good to see them go.
The entertainment division is full of zombie projects like Zune that need to be killed, many more with even less success that zune.
The built out their infrastructure thinking they could grow like Google. They didn't. They can scale back to what they really need. Probably the start of a re-think on how much they need to really put into Live, probably will be much less in the future.
I think MS has really become to de-focused and diverse. Either they need to cut much more, or split the company up into several smaller more focused companies. All their products and services are suffering as a result of this. All the executives are far too split fighting fires in Dynamics, XBox, Zune, WM, etc., etc. They don't have the bandwidth to plan for the future anymore, develop a cohesive strategy or really execute on a good plan. Usually a really bad sign for a company once the day to day fires take up all the companies executive bandwidth and none goes to future strategy, direction or planning.

Goblin wrote:
"I think when Mark Shuttleworth refused to belittle Windows 7 (I believe he thought it good) says it all. Linux users dont need to use cheap tactics in order to push the platform, its relies on peoples experience of it to do the advertising for it. "

But Linux users seem to find the need to promote Linux on M.S. topic sites. Hmmmm.

@Andre;

You are right. We do not have enough details to assume that M.S. let go of the wrong people, how many were voluntary, how many were poorly performing. I would think a company as large and successful as M.S. would do their best to make cuts and still get the job done to maximize their profits and market share.

"So what Id say to those people is: I do not want to convince you that Linux is a better platform."

Actually, that's exactly what you're trying to do, replete with informercial and distrowatch link.

AS FOR DATA CENTER/INFRASTRUCTURE GROWTH,

I think M$ is probably making the right decision. I think they recognize that this global recession is going to slow the growth of cloud computing as it's going to slow the growth for just about everything and for much longer than most people realize or want to admit at this point. If so, M$ is to be commended for seeing the writing on the wall and pulling back its growth plans accordingly.

The U.S. economy is on track to loose upwards of 2 million jobs in the first quarter alone. In fact, I've read where some analysts are predicting upwards of one million jobs may be lost in January. As such, this means it may be quite a while before M$ needs to resurrect their data center growth plan, which I'm sure they'll continue to refine.

The upside for M$ is that this will give them time to release WM7, SkyBox, SkyMarket, Azure, and not worry about Apple, Google, or RIM shooting too far ahead. WM6.5 should be a solid update that lays the ground work for more services to follow. Hopefully, we'll see M$ work with device manufacturers and carriers to keep most of these 6.5 based devices at or well below $200.

As an aside, I agree with Joe that W7 needs to be released under no more than three versions: business, consumer, and starter, which should be targeted at netbooks and developing nations.

Joe,

A 2% HC cut after a 10% miss is minor. In fact, it was universally panned by analysts as being too little, and anything less would have been irresponsible given current conditions. Trying to make the case that "MS Cut It's Future" just isn't supported by the facts. We don't know what is being done simultaneously with 10%'ers. We don't know how many good people currently caught up in the 1400, because it was position-based, will be given preference elsewhere within the company. The Data Center people wrote on their blog about how they were able to cut some costs without an undue impact. E&D doesn't need more investment, it's needs smarter investment and much better execution. If they think they already have that, then they need to pull back from that business. And evangelists are something never in short supply at MS. Losing a few isn't going to change that.

As per Ridley,
"But Linux users seem to find the need to promote Linux on M.S. topic sites. Hmmmm."...............

Maybe thats because we have used both Linux and Windows, and can fairly compare them. Its not like we are being paid or compensated someway (free computers from Microsoft) like the guy you agree so much with, Andre Da Costa. We are just users, and will not go away.

In fact, the more I think about this, it sounds more like: Ridley=Andre Da Costa sock puppet.

@Chip:

"Fact: Revenue-wise, Microsoft makes an average of $11.5 per WinMo license, while Apple makes $500 per iPhone."

While there's reasonable proof that AT&T was subsidizing the iPhone to the tune of up to $200 through most of 2008, it's highly unlikely that Walmart is subsidizing one red cent; it's against their business model. And, I doubt AT&T, with the entrance of Walmart, is providing any meaningful subsidy. As such, your $500 figure is a WAG at best. Certainly, Apple is making more than $200M, but they do have to pay for the cost to develop the devices and, increasingly, will most likely have to deal with deteriorating subsidizes from AT&T.

Don't get me wrong. Apple appears to be doing just about everything right these days, but my guess is that M$ will produce an extremely well received WM7, with the interim 6.5 release providing the necessary market stabilization to give them time to deliver WM7.

As for the Zune, I have one word: ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE . . .

A little reminder here for folks, about the motives of Andre Da Costa in regards to Micro$oft. Andre recieves lot of FREE stuff from MS, so is it any wonder, that he is so PRO-MS, and hates for people to discuss Linux or Mac, and compare it with Windows?

From a previous post, the free laptop from M$ when Vista came out,just so the new posters and Andre can remember:

"and now for the smoking gun,
Andre da Costa, aka adacosta, also known as Mr. Dee on various forums is rightly proud of that laptop:

http://cid-e8e5cc039d51e3db.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/E8E5CC039D51E3DB!15961

It is a beauty Andy, enjoy."

Ridley,
I am a little concerned by what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting that an alternate view to Windows is not welcome here? or are you saying that we should only have pro Microsoft opinion here? or are you saying that its just my opinion not welcome?
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I believe that those seeking a microsoft only view, will be more than happy with the microsoft site itself. I was under the impression that debate could be posted here and joe presents his posts with the intention to stimulate such discussion. If people dont want to read what I or anyone is saying then they simply need to skip my post. I always use the same handle so its very clear when I post.
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Ridley, why should a customer of Microsoft have any problem with an alternatives view that is posted here. If someone is simply an enduser of an MS product, why should it matter what is posted, it hardly effects them does it.
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Ridley, if you care to look at the majority of comments you will see the alternatives view is in the majority here (rightly or wrongly) if you take exception to this, then I suggest you bring it up with the owner of this blog, who has already said all views are welcome.
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If as Andre suggests there are many people independant of MS who are happy with the products, then where are they? why dont we see them here to the extent of happy users who have moved away from Microsoft? In the interests of fairness, these links should be hear. Unfortunately a pro-ms viewpoint seems a rare occurance, although a newer user falcon is a welcome addition and I sincerely hope they post more.
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Chips, i look forward to reading the link!!!!

I am only stating a fact. The fact is that this supposed Microsoft topic forum is loaded with Linux infomercials. Whatever topic regarding M.S. Joe writes about, several posters here segue it into Linux. It is claimed that Linux doesn't need "cheap tactics", yet they sure like to flood M.S. forums with praise for Linux.

If I were looking for information on Linux, you'd think I would check out Linux watch, but there certainly is a load of Linux promotion right here on MICROSOFT WATCH.

To Ridley:

You Have Choice

It is true, you have a point...if maters here were looked at from a 'fair' POV and guided by honest opinion. Sadly, it does not always happen in forums such as this.

One of the motives why I started writing here is that, being a MS user, I felt outraged by Ms' pseudo-criminal behaviour. Adding to that outrage were the inferior quality, spyware-ridden products.

Thus I started looking at the forums to find ideas which may clear my mind. And...surprise! I found out some others out there thought the same as I. However, as soon as their voices were raised in protest, they were silenced en masse by quite a few others. Ergo, I asked myself 'what is happening here?'. The answer came to me as 5000 Ms bloggers, paid to silence any opinion which differed from the desired norm, struck down opinions in their domains with a sort of dictatorial bluntness.

My patience could not withstand that-a feeling which I think would be echoed by others across this forum and other forums out there (This is akin to an uprising).

Thus, my friend, until MS does not stop its abusive practices, you will have me and others who will speak of what is just and fair-that includes Open Source. That includes all of whom not operating with the same dictatorial ruthlessness which characterises MS, are impeded to show other ways to those who are still blinded by Ms' propaganda machine.

Those of us who have escaped Ms just wish to tell those others that they have a CHOICE.

To RidleyAndre,
How can you discuss Windows, without discussing their competition, Linux and Mac? Is the problem that you cannot win the argument on facts, and therefore want that the subject be censored? I know so. So why not instead tell us about the free laptops/computers you get from MS? That would be more interesting to us than your whining because Linux is being discussed to the determent of MS. Everyone here has guessed that you and Andre are one and the same.

Joe; "At times like these, evangelists are more effective than any marketing campaign."

That WAS true, now the people is beginning to 'learn' about Ms' propaganda machine and this will be discredited to MS even more, but you knew that Joe (that was Machiavellian. he,he)

Ridley, I actually started thinking you might have a bit of a point, I read your post and thought, "you know what, maybe whilst presenting the alternative view, we become guilty of what some dubious pro-ms posters do."
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Then you said "The fact is that this supposed Microsoft topic forum is loaded with Linux infomercials."
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and it reminded me are to the whole point of posting an alternative view. Are you saying we havent seen blatant adverts/pr/propaganda/deception by those with a pro-ms stance aimed not only towards Linux, but any user who dares to make a comment challenging the Microsoft way.
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I challenge you to find anything I have said which is dishonest, untruthful or misleading. There you are, I challenge you. I stand by everything I have said and am quite able to justify fully my actions.
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Talking of infomercials, shall I quote the many we see every week in relation to Microsoft products? Would you like me to link where people refuse to acknoledge Vista's failure (IMO) or what about the time where pro-ms posters took to impersonating people. Surely these things are far worse than any Linux post or alternatives.
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If you would be happy where the underhanded tactics WE HAVE WITNESSED HERE are rife and where an alternative viewpoint is NOT given, then I suggest you create your own site. As far as I am concerned, the owner of this site wants others to comment.
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Since the majority of comments are pro alternatives and the happy MS customers (IMO) are few and far between, what on earth would you talk about? in my opinion if the alternative users left this site tomorrow, there would be a massive void in the comment section, and we'd mostly see Andre talking about his "feature rich Vista" and others claiming that the average UKr wants a Zune. There would be no mention of Xbox's or Zunes partypooping new years eve behaviour, it would be (IMO) one big happy Microsoft community built on propaganda, failed promises and fake satisfaction (IMO)
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Is that what you want? Is obviously not what most people want, and you should be happy Linux/alternatives users come here, we keep the "community" lively.
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I said many months ago when I first started posting that MSwatch is probably more pro-Linux than Linux.com, looks to me like the more people get involved in trying it, the more people join the community we have here.
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IMO Microsoft never worked out that genuine word of mouth praise is far more effective than any marketing tactics or campaign. I believe the best example of that is on Microsoft Watch, which no longer (IMO) "watches" the latest happenings on Microsoft, it acts now more like a consumer watchdog, to ensure that the end-user gets a more balanced view on any project/release that Microsoft releases.
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Who cares what the end-user chooses at the end of it all (hopefully the product that is best for them). The fact that they know of the alternative is good enough for me and the reason why I (and I believe others) post here.
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As I say on my blog, dont listen to any one person, conduct your own research and choose the product that is right for you. Sage advice, regardless of the OS you use.
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Ridley please (as I say above) quote me on anything deceptive or untruthful I have said. If you cant then Im not posting an infomercial, Im printing the other side of the debate (which should be celebrated). Stand up for your convictions and quote me if you can.
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@Andre:
Thanks for answering the question about the PDC, you didnt answer the part about recieving a laptop properly. I have made the question as simple as I can and all it requires is a yes or no answer:

Andre, have you ever received a "review","free",(or whatever you want to call it) laptop (or desktop) from Microsoft and/or its affiliated partners? YES or NO
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Like I say, one word can clear this all up and Ill be happy to run a piece on my site, and also make sure people here know aswell.
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Thanks for your time.

Quote Jules "Why do i still read this crap?"
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I dont know, but you obviously do otherwise you wouldnt have posted that. Id suggest you ask that question of yourself not of a posting community who would find it difficult to assess why you are reading something when we dont even know who you are, or your psychological makeup.
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Unless someone surprises me and is able to accurately explain why Jules does in fact read this "crap". If such a person exists, maybe they could also answer my question of:
"Why do I have a phobia of clowns?"
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Jules, in all seriousness, if you have a complaint about content, I suggest you speak to the owner of the site directly. I dont think we can help you here and I certainly dont think you are doing yourself justice while trying to make a statement about your opinions on MSwatch content.

Yes, there are millions of Windows users out there. Yes, most people who own the Xbox are very happy with it. Yes, most people who own a Microsoft Zune are very happy with it. But, based on Microsoft's own business model, there aren't enough people out there loving these products.

MSFT's investors have lost everything but their shrits during the past 10 years. The Xbox is bleeding money. The Zune is embarassingly flailing behind the iPod, and everyone else who's selling more than the Zune.

Microsoft needs to wake up and start integrating the products that they sell, the things they do best. But, alas, this is Microsoft, and they've never demonstrated a propensity for being smart when they don't own the market.

Unfortunately for Microsoft and MSFT investors, Microsoft doesn't learn lessons. What they do is throw money at projects that fail or, at best, just keep their brand name in the news.

Just making a point. And it is truthful point. Linux users post an inordinate amount of Linux praise on M.S. topic sites. And these Linux posters almost always take the topic to their favorite O.S. The topic may be about M.S. cutting jobs, or the fixes in Windows 7, the end of XP availability, etc. And someone like Andre or any other individual is belittled by some if anything positive is said of M.S. And the name of this site still reads, "MICROSOFT WATCH".

Just making a point. And it is truthful point. Linux users post an inordinate amount of Linux praise on M.S. topic sites. And these Linux posters almost always take the topic to their favorite O.S. The topic may be about M.S. cutting jobs, or the fixes in Windows 7, the end of XP availability, etc. And someone like Andre or any other individual is belittled by some if anything positive is said of M.S. And the name of this site still reads, "MICROSOFT WATCH".

@SkateNY:

Have you noticed how many projects Google has axed in the lat three months?

Just making a point too

and where are the hostage but the enemy camp? ("MICROSOFT WATCH")

Key sentence; 'And someone like Andre' ; Andre is a established beyond doubt MS' shill

(A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer.The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims)

Quoting myself: 'The answer came to me as 5000 Ms bloggers, paid to silence any opinion which differed from the desired norm'

-----------------
Yes I could like to call this blog MICROSOFT is WATCH...ing to the people wake.. but you know about the Joe's stubbornness (I'm kidding Joe)

At last I know the hard that it's for MS and its propaganda machine when is unable to operate at will...but..."C'est la Vie" my friend.

Ridley and yes I agree, but then so do Microsoft users, some of which is legitimate others which is dishonest (IMO)
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I think youve found a solution to your own post, if you feel microsoft needs championing and needs more posts, why not do it yourself. I would welcome a regular honest pro ms debator as it will assist in producing a balanced view.
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I am still waiting for you to highlight anything I have said which is untruthful in regards to Linux and or alternatives. If you cant, then my opinion should be welcomed, Afterall its far better than some of the dodgy pro ms comments weve seen in the past. Unless of course you dont want a site of honest held belief and diverse viewpoint.
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Ridley, I also have to challenge you. People do not belittle pro ms view, you either have missed those posts or your are telling lies. I can name jess,david for starters who off the top of my head I have had decent conversations with. Andre on the otherhand hasnt answered the question of if he has recieved freebies and his posts are very different to those such as jess or more recently falcon. Andre is legendary (imo) over the net for his posting, and he posts read like PR sheets. Mr da Costa has a few handles he uses on the net and until he gives us disclosure on if he has recieved and items from microsoft or its afffiliated partners (and I mean answering the question I put to him, not a reworded answer which can be open to many interpretations.

Goblin calls me a liar. That there is no belittlement of M.S. users by Linux users on this site. Quote by sam: "That would be more interesting to us than your whining because Linux is being discussed to the determent of MS. Everyone here has guessed that you and Andre are one and the same." Quote by sam: "In fact, the more I think about this, it sounds more like: Ridley=Andre Da Costa sock puppet." And Goblin referring to me as a liar. I have NEVER stated that ALL Linux posters have used belittling comments. Goblin, you do not need to be so harsh with M.S. posters, especially since, last I checked, this was still MICROSOFT-WATCH.

Oh Ridley. Playing victim again? Looks like you need quoting.

You said "And someone like Andre or any other individual is belittled by some if anything positive is said of M.S."
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To which I responded "people do not belittle pro ms view, you either have missed those posts or your are telling lies."
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You know very well there is a difference between legitimate view and PR and your implication that anything Pro-ms is belittled is false. Please read on.
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Ridley you said "Goblin referring to me as a liar"
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Eh? What I actually said was "People do not belittle pro ms view, you either have missed those posts or your are telling lies."
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See my wording? You either "missed those posts" OR (notice OR)? you are telling lies.
Looks like you've given that answer yourself and you have infact missed the posts, since I remember saying to Jess (a confessed Microsoft Employee) that her posts have integrity.
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If you are going to play Ally Mcbeal and try to change my words or fudge my statements as if its a civil courtroom, at least make a better job of it. I would have expected a better counter even from a legal rep.

@Ridley
Since I helped Mr Ballmer out earlier, Ill do the same for you.
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What you should have said was:
"SOME MS view is belittled by others on this site"
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to which I would have answered, "true, but then it works both ways and since the challenges have been made towards our PR posters and not the posts where honest held belief is made, its a bit of a moot point"
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What about the belittling of Linux users, what about all the insults aimed at them, the name calling, the impersonation, why are you not challenging that? Why is it you only see the belittling of certain pro-ms view as a problem, yet make no mention of others who have had insults thrown at them. (myself included)
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I hope you now understand that its not pro-ms view that is challenged, its the source in which it comes from that is.

@Ridley
For the record, I dont believe you to be Andre Da Costa.
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Reason:
You havent posted any Microsoft buzzwords in your posts.
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I would keep in mind though (if you are not using a proxy) that Joe keeps an eye on IP's that are the same with different handles. If you do turn out to be Andre, you'd look pretty silly since a few posts up you were disagreeing with yourself. ;)

@Ridley:

Re: "Just making a point. And it is truthful point."
No argument here.

Re: "Linux users post an inordinate amount of Linux praise on M.S. topic sites. And these Linux posters almost always take the topic to their favorite O.S."
I bet there's a site or two about injury and diseases that contains an inordinate amount of praise to the medical treatments or cures to those injuries and diseases.

Re: "And someone like Andre or any other individual is belittled by some if anything positive is said of M.S."
As were people who didn't want to invest with Bernie Maddof, bury themselves in credit card debt, or do their jobs well. If you want praise for everything you do, your best bets are your mother and father. Your worst bets are with the posting section of internet blog sites.

Re: "And the name of this site still reads, 'MICROSOFT WATCH'."
Yeah, I've wondered about that, too. I've heard plenty about Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Visual Studio, Microsoft Mouse, Microsoft XBox, Microsoft Mobile, and on and on. But I don't recall that Microsoft has ever sold watches.

Absolutely am not Andre. I agree with much that Andre posts. But I probably find much more to be fixed with M.S. than Andre believes. There are a multitude of issues with M.S. products for sure, but as I occasionally use Linux, I have to say the same for Linux. Neither are close to perfect. It is just my opinion that the high volume of posts promoting Linux does not assist the readers. I feel it is just a way to promote the relevance of Linux. I have used Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse and even Corel Linux many years ago. I have often gone to Linux blog sites for assistance and I have to say, M.S. has not been brought up much on those sites. And I appreciate that. It has been pleasant getting Linux info without long posts extolling the virtues of using Windows. IMO there are a group of Linux users who do in fact use M.S. topic sites to promote the O.S. As I have said before, I know they aren't paid, so their motivation must be a satisfaction of seeing their beloved O.S. mentioned so much in M.S. topic sites. Makes them feel important. Makes them feel like their O.S. has relevance.

@Philosopher
Hi!
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LOL. Thats good!!!
Quote "Re: "And the name of this site still reads, 'MICROSOFT WATCH'."
Yeah, I've wondered about that, too. I've heard plenty about Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Visual Studio, Microsoft Mouse, Microsoft XBox, Microsoft Mobile, and on and on. But I don't recall that Microsoft has ever sold watches."
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Damn. Why didnt I think of that one!
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Quote Ridley "have said before, I know they aren't paid, so their motivation must be a satisfaction of seeing their beloved O.S. mentioned so much in M.S. topic sites. Makes them feel important. Makes them feel like their O.S. has relevance."
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I wont argue as its obvious what/who has the moral highground here and IMO youre failed attempt to prove.....something....?!?!
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What I will ask you though is, "Why dont we tend to see the words beloved and Microsoft in the same sentence?"
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I believe software speaks for itself, If I am guiltly of holding Linux is such high regard then its because Ive had a great experience.
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Anyway, enough of this tot.
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@Andre Da Costa:
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Have you ever recieved a gift/freebie/review (or whatever you want to call it) piece of hardware from Microsoft and/or its affiliated partners?
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Would you like to explain the photographs that Chips linked to where you are proudly displaying a laptop and waving for the camera? (should you have lost these Ive taken copies, and I can re-publish if you require)

@Ridley:
Re: "I have often gone to Linux blog sites for assistance and I have to say, M.S. has not been brought up much on those sites. And I appreciate that. It has been pleasant getting Linux info without long posts extolling the virtues of using Windows. IMO there are a group of Linux users who do in fact use M.S. topic sites to promote the O.S."

Well, you can bemoan this observation, or you can accept it and learn from it.

Do you think it's related in any way to the fact that most of the very popular and rock-solid Linux/Unix applications (OpenOffice.org, Inkscape, The Gimp, Scribus, Emacs, *ix tools such as ls, cp, rm, grep, sed, awk, tar, and infozip, Apache, Perl, PHP, Java, Ruby, Tcl, bash, Firefox, gcc/g++, Eclipse, NetBeans, TeX/LaTeX, Ghostscript, Samba, to name but a few) are also available in solid Windows versions, but very little, if any, very popular Windows software is also available for Linux? And that practically none of it is available from Microsoft itself?

You should look past the whiners you mention and look to the vast legions of open source developers who actively embrace solid and robust Windows ports of their applications. The open source world reaches out to Windows because it has to (desktop monopoly and all that), but they also embrace the task with gusto.

Much of the Windows world rejects the open source world as a "bunch of freetards", and yet at the same time betrays a fear and loathing that one would reserve only for an enemy that one truly feared as superior.

@Andre
As I posted on another article, you will never live that laptop down brother! You are going to pay for that thing in grief far more than you ever would have paid in Euros or Dollars! They will never forget it and they will never let you forget it. And it will always be their ammunition in shooting you down in any remarks you make. To them, you are tainted.

Would somebody please give Andre a Linux laptop or netbook or something, so he can post without the stupid laptop being brought up every time?

Quote "Would somebody please give Andre a Linux laptop or netbook or something, so he can post without the stupid laptop being brought up every time?"
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I dont think so, it would be a nightmare if Andre brought his "feature rich" comments to a Linux platform that needs no shilling.

I find it so interesting that Linux users are so defensive of their O.S. If you spring for a new P.C., it is going to have Windows pre-installed. If you build your own rig, and I am talking a high-end one, you certainly wouldn't want to waste that awesome processor and video card with an inferior O.S. You want the feature rich content, the modern, attractive GUI, you want Windows 7 or Vista. I think the Linux users are jealous that the O.S. really isn't going anywhere. Even Wal-Mart gave up on it!

LOL! Goblin. Thanks for the laugh of the day! From Gobin... Top Shill!

Great counter argument there Ridley. It must have taken a while to come up with!?!?!
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I suggest you take a look at where this whole laptop issue has taken us. Since I dont recieve any free gifts and support Linux (as a whole not a particular distro) I fail to see how I can shill for anything. But Ill leave that to the readers to decide.
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Quote Ridley "If you spring for a new P.C., it is going to have Windows pre-installed."
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Since the EU has already ruled against Microsoft in relation to IE, I have little doubt that this will progress further. You may not be saying the same thing when anti-trust legislation considers "pre-installed" and in anycase, as shown in the recent governments that are either switching to or considering Open Source, removing a pre-installed OS or dual booting is rather simple these days.
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Try it out for yourself on:
www.distrowatch.com
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Ill end on your best comment so far:
"I find it so interesting that Linux users are so defensive of their O.S."
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Yes you would, you use Windows amd Microsoft products, and the thought of anyone being genuinely passionate about a piece of software is really quite alien to you (IMO) Open Source needs defending otherwise people who have recieved free gifts and are championing Microsoft will quite happily let people be influenced by what they say. (IMO)
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Ill come on to challenging you later on your revelations of selling Linux systems to people on a tight budget, unfortunately I have some other things to do. Ill be back with that, and probably an article on my site about it too.
(And I thought today was going to be a slow news day)

Linux adoption still going nowhere: http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2179
And Linux market share has actually decreased since August 2008. Linux market share is referred to as a drop in the ocean, even when compared with Vista. We have been hearing for well over a decade that Linux was going to soon be a common desktop O.S. and yet still it is going nowhere and still misses that elusive 1% market share.

@Goblin:

I thought I would post this link, as it has the most useful market share data. Notice the difference between different surveys. The only data that can actually be somewhat trusted is an overall feeing of gain for alternatives, and loss for Microsoft.

Usage share of desktop operating systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems

Quote "and still misses that elusive 1% market share"
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Old news, and the strange this is (as was noticed by another poster) that no matter how many governments have recently announced a move to Open Source, that figure never changes.
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Loss, gains, does it really matter? Well obviously it does to someone, since if Microsoft had nothing to worry about, there would be no point posting it.
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Why Ridley do you quote a dubious and unproven figure as a justification for Windows being better? As I said before very few people own a Bentley, does that make it a worse car than a Corsa?

LOL! Thanks again Goblin for another laugh! A big laugh! Linux as a Bentley! ROFLMAO! if anything, Max OSX is the Bentely. Windows, a Chevy, Linux, a Yugo!!!!! Now THAT may be funny also, but only because it is so true!

And M.S. is losing market share, no doubt, but to Mac OSX NOT Linux! Wake up and smell the coffee!

@Ridley.
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I never said Linux was a Bentley, what youve obviously failed to grasp was the implication that just because something is popular, doesnt make it better than an alternative that is not. We were talking about figures
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Quote "And M.S. is losing market share, no doubt, but to Mac OSX NOT Linux! Wake up and smell the coffee!"
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Whats your point? Unlike you I am not obsessed by figures and hold very little worth in them.
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Mind you from using the wifes Mac a few times, I agree with you and can personally see why people want to switch to Mac over windows.
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So you sell Linux systems and believe Microsoft is loosing customers to Mac?
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But you still think Windows is better? Ok. I wonder what your next revelation will be? Keep it up, youre doing a great job.

You don't get it. I am not a Linux hater. Yes, I do sell systems that I put Linux on. It is solid and reliable. No, it is not a Yugo as I compared it. More like a Toyota Corolla. Solid reliable, but not much fun. It is great for those on a tight budget. But for the premium experience, I completely recommend Windows Vista and Windows 7!

@Ridley :
You don't get it. I am not a Linux hater. Yes, I do sell systems that I put Linux on. It is solid and reliable. No, it is not a Yugo as I compared it. More like a Toyota Corolla. Solid reliable, but not much fun. It is great for those on a tight budget. But for the premium experience, I completely recommend Windows Vista and Windows 7!
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While we are on the car analogies, I would say that Windows is a corvair, early model. The corvair had a lot of safety problems, like Windows has malware security problems by default. Even the engines of early Corvair could just fall out in the highway, while driving it. Ralph Nader went on a crusade about the problems of the Corvair, and GM fixed them, from 65 to 69 the Convair was turned into one of the best GM cars made, partly thanks to Ralph, whither you like him or not. So you see, its not about hating MS, its about getting them to fix their product, something both Linux and Windows users alike should want MS to do.

As far as you saying that you are not a Linux Hater, well, I have some doubts there, but I will try to keep an open mind. This is not about who's soccer team is going win the game. Its not about taking sides, its about using the best tool, the safest tool, which is all an OS really is. And Windows, is not safe by default on the internet.

Car analogies are not good for O.S.'s. A better analogy would be homes in different locations. Windows is like a home in London, New York City or Tokyo. Linux is a home in the country, cut in the rural area. Windows will be a much bigger target because that is where the overwhelming majority is. Hackers and the malware writers aren't going to bother with Linux, as it's user base is such a joke. Virtually no one uses it. It is irrelevant. That is the only reason malware is nearly nonexistent in Linux.

Quote Ridley "Hackers and the malware writers aren't going to bother with Linux, as it's user base is such a joke. Virtually no one uses it. It is irrelevant. That is the only reason malware is nearly nonexistent in Linux"
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No one uses it? Servers?
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Does it matter WHY there is so little malware? Youve just agreed there isnt.

Ridley says:
"Virtually no one uses it. It is irrelevant. That is the only reason malware is nearly nonexistent in Linux."
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Its not irrelevant to me, never got any malware, and only crashes were caused by hardware failure. Can't say that about windows.

Ok, Ridley, its seems you need a lesson in basic Windows security, so you will understand why Linux is more secure than default Windows. When you go down and buy that computer off the self at Best Buy or wherever, its already has Windows setup runinng on it. And if you do a fresh install, it will be setup the same way, you will be Administrator by default. This means you can install software, and so can the internet, without your approval. But most Linux distro's setup by default a limited user account. This means that you need to type in your Administrator password to install software. And the internet malware would also need this password to install, which they do not have. UAC is not a limited user account.

Now, even if you do setup a limited user account in Windows, its painful to use compared to linux. And for other reasons, which I will not go into, its not as secure as a linux limited user account. Still using a true limited user account in Windows, with other software to protect it, does greatly help. But what can you expect from the 80% of home users who cannot defend against malware, do you expect them to setup limited accounts? It's not going happen, until Micro$oft fixes it.

One, one of the reasons for Windows security issues is the user default setup. The biggest reason is the overwhelmingly dominant market share Windows has managed to attain. Malware writers have miniscule interest in fringe, second-rate, fractional-user-base O.S.'s.

Ridley says :

"One, one of the reasons for Windows security issues is the user default setup. The biggest reason is the overwhelmingly dominant market share Windows has managed to attain. Malware writers have miniscule interest in fringe, second-rate, fractional-user-base O.S.'s."
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Amazing, Ridley admits that Windows is unsecure by default, and yet he plugs this malware target. Also Ridley keeps insisting the the secure OS (Linux) is 2nd rate, that after Ridley admitted to not really having much experience with it.

Joe Wilcox cannot protect himself from Windows Viruses, the DOD, the Royal Navy, what chance does the average user have? At least 80% of Windows home computers are infected with some form of malware. Windows is the 2nd rate OS.

And Ridley, I showed you why Windows default security was so horrible, but you don't seem to grasp that? But does it really matter, why its so bad, when for whatever reason, Linux does not have the Malware problem. Thats reason enough for consumers to switch from an unsafe (Windows) product to one that is (Linux).

Although UAC has been a bane to many, it has made Windows Vista a much more secure O.S. With the advances in Windows 7, it will be the best Windows yet and a standard that other fringe O.S.'s could never achieve. I have faith that M.S. will price the Home Premium upgrade right and we will see a new Windows that can dethrone XP! It is an exciting time in the P.C. world as this new Windows gets close to release.

You know, I have to say something today... I am not a man who posts a lot of nonsense on the forums...especially the MS vs Mac craziness. I am not a Microsoft hater or an apple lover... I have tried Linux a few times and have never thought of it as a "finished" product. I used to be an Apple fanatic until 1994 when they nearly ruined their products, and went terribly adrift. When Windows95 came out, I was thrilled and excited and became very enthusiastic about Microsoft and some of it's great products. I remained hopeful during the long wait while Vista was being developed... after all...they had fixed a lot of things that were wrong with XP. I was shocked and amazed at how wrong they got Vista, but still didn't hate it, though the bugs in it drive me NUTS, even with SP1. I remained, however hopeful that the company would rediscover its purpose and that things would eventually be alright. Something happened today that radically changed my thinking.

I read today that The wonderful "intelligent" people running Microsoft recently decided to close down, not put up for sale, scale back, , make cost cuts.... just close... one of their most successful franchises ever. They closed down ACES studios, the division that created and made Flight Simulator THE standard for people like me who are great airplane enthusiasts who want a taste of driving a 747 without killing anyone. Since 1989 this product has destroyed the competition over and over, partially because of the Microsoft label, no doubt, but mostly because every version that came out was a huge improvement on the last, well supported and a great value. It was fun, entertaining and one of Microsoft's few shining successes, especially lately. They closed it down completely... citing some BS about "reordering their priorities". They showed no regard for the countless fans of this product who loved playing it, formed virtual airlines to play online with other "Pilots", and almost fanatically waited for the next release. Like many of these people I am angry. But more than that I am very, very disappointed and hurt. In life you can forgive someone who seriously hurts you... but you never, never forget it and the scars last forever. In business this is even more true... once you've eaten a couple of horrible meals at a restaurant you previously loved, you never go back.
For the first time in my life, I understand what it must have been like to sit in a lifeboat that cold night in April 1912, and watch the greatest ocean liner of all time sink with great loss of life right before my eyes.

Microsoft has lost me as customer. That is a very easy thing to say, and yeah I know I'll be "forced" to use windows at work and at home to play the occasional game I enjoy. But when I'm done with someone (or something, in this case), I am truly done. I will never, never encourage anyone to buy a Microsoft product. I will never again buy a PC with windows preinstalled. (I'll either build my own or buy a Mac.) I will never, never buy a game, or pay a subscription fee or "buy" (rent) a song from Microsoft again...EVER. I was mildly enthusiastic that with Windows 7 they were on the road to correcting a lot of the problems they created when they stopped listening to their customers and created the Vista mess. Guess what? I no longer care. I will use whatever version of windows I have to for work or to play a non-Microsoft game, but it will never again be my primary OS, email application, office application or platform of choice. And guess which console my son will get for Christmas next year....give you a hint...it won't be made by Microsoft.

I spent over two hours today searching microsoft.com for an email address that I could send my thoughts to about this. Amazingly, I didn't find a single one. I could not find ONE SINGLE PLACE where I could either post or email anyone at the company to let them know how much they had hurt and let me down. This is a strong indication to me why they are in trouble and why the people in this company are so shocked and dismayed when they hear about how the public dislikes what they are doing.

Sad, really. So many bright wonderful people working for a company with idiots at the helm. I feel for them... truly. They are so much like all the talented, dedicated people who tended to the Great Liner and her famous passengers. All of them drowned because there was no room in the lifeboats for them.

There are more and more alternatives available, and as Microsoft finds more and more creative "Innovations" to leave their fans and their customers disappointed, frustrated and hurt, these alternatives seem more and more attractive, and I'm now willing to pay for an alternative.
I just read something on their site where they stated that they were dedicated to the "Flight Simulator Franchise" and promised that we hadn't seen the end of Flight Sim yet. Kind of like the president of White Star lines saying they were still dedicated to their passengers after 1500 people drowned without a lifeboat because management thought they would "Clutter" the decks. Just words... and Microsoft, words are NOT going to help you now.

I am only one person... I can't hurt Microsoft on my own, nor would I want to try. But as I figuratively sit here shivering and watching the great liner go down... I look to my right and my left and see all the other survivors too.... and I know I am not alone... in how I feel or what I'll do about it.

My search for my next OS begins today. I am uninstalling the Windows 7 beta partition on my hard drive and will start shopping for the right version of Linux... I already tried going back to XP... HP doesn't have the drivers. I will have to live with Vista a bit longer. But I'm looking for that replacement. I'm hopeful that a good replacement is out there...but even if there isn't...Microsoft is not unlike the company that ran the great liners... sooner or later someone's going to invent the computer equivalent of the jet plane and Microsofts "liners" and their coffers are going to be empty.