Microsoft's 'Big Mac' Pricing
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Some Microsoft Watch readers have vocally commented on the big Windows discount in China—and that's with no post on the topic. It's long past time we piped in on this one. |
On Aug. 1, Microsoft cut the price of Windows Vista Home Basic in China from 1,521 yuan (U.S. $201) to 499 yuan (U.S. $66). The price of Windows Vista Home Premium dropped from 1,802 yuan (U.S. $238.50) to 899 yuan (U.S. $119).
Why should Microsoft sell Windows Vista for less in China than established markets like Europe or the United States? In February 2004, a now former Microsoft executive talked about the "Big Mac index." He asked: "How much does a Big Mac cost in India vs. New York vs. Taipei?" Different pricing is inevitable, because of global economics.
That said, there is some speculation that the price cuts are about pushing back Linux competition. Maybe a little. But Microsoft has a much bigger competitor to combat: Low-cost pirated versions of its own software.
Reasons Microsoft should sell Windows for less in markets like China (and maybe even more deeply discounted than $66 or $119): software piracy, software piracy and software piracy. The three reasons are the same but with interesting nuances.
Microsoft's Fiercest Competitor
Frequent Microsoft Watch commenter Chips writes: "Microsoft cuts Windows Vista price to $66 in China, while we pay full price elsewhere, except for the British and Australians who pay even more. But then I guess they can afford it. China is ripe with piracy, which is MS main competition there, at $1 a disk. At least the piracy competition in China has got MS to do something that it never will in the USA, reduce its price."
He's right about that $1 discs. Windows is available on the streets of Beijing for about a buck, which is stiff competition—even with Microsoft's recent, hefty discount. Microsoft needs to close the pricing gap, surely, but the value gap is more important. People will pay for something they deem valuable. Microsoft shouldn't have to lower Windows street price to a dollar. The software's perceived value diminishes with the price. That said, the street vendors dealing in pirated software have already lowered the software's perceived value.
Microsoft's challenge is to charge more and to offer more value. Another approach would be to charge less, add more value and reap revenue from another source. Ad-sponsored Works 9 could be the forerunner to dramatic change, where Microsoft gives away software for free in markets like China and recovers revenue through advertising. Piracy could even benefit Microsoft by spreading the use of ad-sponsored software.
High Pricing Encourages Software Piracy
Another frequent commenter, Marco writes: " I lived some years in a country of third world and I was witness as the software excessively priced widened the breach between socio-economic stratus...and by extension, between countries, The response? Piracy."
I totally agree with Marco. I've argued for years that U.S. software pricing doesn't work in emerging markets; in fact, it encourages piracy. The longstanding excuse for software piracy is differing values—that there is no respect for intellectual property rights in countries like China. Definitely there is some of this going on—same as here with music or movie piracy—but attitudes aren't all the reasons for piracy. Software cost is the major reason.
How can I make that assertion with surety? People pay somebody for the software. Those dollar discs aren't free. It's the price the competitive market puts on the software at reasonable rates most people can pay or are willing to. If someone pays, how can that be stealing? Of course, Microsoft sees purchased product as stolen because the software is pirated. Maybe, but the the buyer isn't the pirate.
That said, Marco contends that "the price of piracy is very expensive," because of other effects on local societies. "The moral rules and those countries are severely affected with a social cost which cannot be calculated, with immediate repercussions to the level of its creativity."
He makes a good point: Piracy devalues indigenous creative works, too.
Software Piracy is a Huge Security Problem
Some things distributed for low cost or for free carry a hidden price. Over the weekend, a friend IMed that his blog had been hacked. Earlier in the week, I read a report that hackers had inserted code in free Joomla and WordPress blogsite themes. My buddy, who until Friday used Joomla, had applied a hacked theme to his blogsite. He since switched to Movable Type 4 beta.
Pirated software is another source of malicious code. Piracy is a security problem, and one that can devalue Microsoft's brand and perceptions about product quality. Microsoft is better off selling discounted software in high piracy markets than letting piracy spread malicious code. The problem spreads further when criminals harvest infected PCs for use in botnets. From a security perspective, regional piracy is a global problem.
These software piracy factors aren't new, so why is Microsoft lowering pricing now?
- Software assurances. Big Mac pricing is great in concept, but Microsoft risks devaluing software in established markets. Microsoft executives know this. Windows licensing changes and the forced shift of more established customers to Software Assurance contracts insulate Microsoft from some pricing problems, as customers buy into a large suite of desktop and server products and lock into two- or three-year contracts.
- You speak my language? Reduced pricing's great risk is increased piracy in established markets. Three years ago, the Maryland county where I live authorized purchasing drugs for employees and retirees from Canada, because pharmaceuticals cost less there. Microsoft could see similar problem with reduced-price software, if not for language. I suppose someone could buy $66 Windows Basic in China and bring it back to the United States, but language would be a natural barrier.
- Low-hanging sales. Many Americans have misconceptions about some emerging markets: Everybody is poor. Not so. There is always at least a wealthy elite that would pay higher pricing. Microsoft has talked about Big Mac pricing while keeping higher pricing in many markets to get those low-hanging sales. The company's emerging market strategy—government sponsored software distribution, rental software, steep discounts and cheap defeatured products—is about gleaning the most sales from each socioeconomic segment, starting with the wealthiest individuals. The China discounts are just part of a process made trickier by huge household income differences between people living in rural areas and cities like Beijing and Shanghai.
- Shifting sales. Microsoft and analysts agree that PC sales growth is strongest in emerging markets like China—double digits, compared to single digits in North America. Many of the same markets have high piracy rates. Lower pricing is one way to increase legal Windows purchases, particularly among businesses. Timing is right for China, with the Olympics going there next year and the country therefore more willing to support companies like Microsoft.
- Global security. As I explained a few paragraphs ago, piracy is one of the mechanisms by which criminals distribute malicious code. The problem has escalated so much that Microsoft and its established market customers have more to lose from resultant security problems than any revenue risk posed by software discounting in some markets. A compromised copy of Windows sold in Beijing can cause problem for Windows users in New York, Pretoria or Sydney
As for Linux, sure Microsoft wants to combat open source alternatives in countries like China. Microsoft's nightmare scenario would be China, India or Russia developing an indigenous software industry, starting from open source as base, and shipping to established markets low-cost alternatives to products like Office. But for all the talk about Linux competition, Microsoft has bigger problems in emerging markets like China.
Comments (53)
This is a joke, right? This is the occasional tame article aimed at pacifying your some of the commenters, while rewarding the chips and the macros for their loyalty, isn't it? Everyone knew the main reason for reducing prices was to counter piracy, but your weekly FUD articles create so much controversy on this blog that you feel this type of an article will serve to diffuse tension. Tomorrow, you'll be back at what you do best - Microsoft bashing. It's sad that you not only tolerate chips and his like, but actually encourage them to tolerate their Microsoft bashing on this blog.
Research, Joe, research. That's what the good ones do.
Posted by reflections | August 6, 2007 9:07 PM
Now, I know that clips and macro will once again come to your rescue and attack me. That's just the way things work in the Joe land. Yes, my comments have little to do with the topic on hand and only serve to start a fight on this blog, but hopefully I'll be able to get my point across to you that this site is not intended to be another Ihatemicrosoft.com or a roughlydrafted.com. It's supposed to be an impartial look at Microsoft. Unfortunately, that's not the case right now.
Posted by reflections | August 6, 2007 9:13 PM
Like everything Micro$oft does, the logic in the "big mac" analogy is even more flawed than the Xbox360, if thats possible.
It doesn't cost the same amount, to make a big mac in New York City as China. You use local products, and local labor. Want to bet that they pay those workers at MacDonald's in China the same as NYC? But guess what, a windows cd or dvd, Vista or XP, cost the same anywhere to make.
Now M$ is a company that has about a 78% profit to cost ratio, which is one of the highest for a big company out there. As a matter of fact, I don't know of many other companies that have this kind of level of profit to cost ratio.
The problem here is going be simple. At some point, as most people are not stupid, there are going look at the bottom line, and buy their Windows disks and/or their laptops from China. Except, that the cost of shipping a laptop over here will wipe out the savings. So what you will have, is Chinese companies or others, importing this stuff in mass to get really good shipping prices,this will let them undercut the US companies.
M$ will have to therefore change its WGA and licensing, to reflect this. I legit disk bought in China will not be good here, etc. So once again, the WGA will get moved up a notch.
The simple solution to all M$ problems, is to reduce the price of Windows all over the world. Its definitely over priced, as two class action lawsuits, one in California, and one in Iowa, have made M$ pay. This problem is not going go away for M$, as more people will become aware of what M$ is doing in China, they will want the cheaper Windo$e. And I do believe, that we are on the verge of seeing more of these class action type lawsuits, not only here in the USA, but all over the world. This pricing policy of M$ does nothing but fuel that.
Now M$ has tried to sell the $3 starter edition, which is really crippleware, Why would the Chinese buy the Starter edition for $3, which would be hard or impossible to find, when they can buy XP Pro for $1 anywhere without fear? Now M$ job of selling Vista for $66 in China is going be a hard one, as M$ is responsible to condition the Chinese that its ok to run pirated software.
Just a guess, I would bet more users in China pirate XP Pro than Vista. Vista would mostly only come on new computers for them.
I do think that the cost of M$ Windows is going go down in the next couple of years. Things could change here if we get an administration that is not in bed with M$ this next election. The EU could actually wake up and really fine the heck out of M$, instead of the pocket change of 500 million. Linux and Mac could make enough inroads so that M$ sees and fear competition. And of course, the class action lawsuits.
I talk a lot about the endless greed of M$ and the high price of Windows and Office. That and the monopoly is some of the reasons that it cost so much. But there is another reason for the high price, shareholders. If the price is ever dropped to a fair price in the USA, then however is in charge of M$, will be run out on a rail by the shareholders. M$ is on a lot of pressure to show growing revenue every quarter. At some point Windows users may wake up to fact that they are being raped by MS on the price. This in itself may turn out to be the straw that broke the camels back.
Piracy in the USA, will not drive down the cost of Windows, as the laws are very tough on it. But the WGA in itself baked into Vista, may cause users to seek out alternative Operating Systems.
Posted by chips | August 6, 2007 10:03 PM
Umm...I think that 499/1521 is more like a two thirds cut.
Posted by Eadwacer | August 6, 2007 10:42 PM
Umm...I think that 499/1521 is more like a two-thirds cut.
Posted by Eadwacer | August 6, 2007 10:43 PM
Reflections
You said that "Now, I know that clips and macro will once again come to your rescue and attack me."
And sure enough the next comment is from ... yes you guessed it folks... the ever reliable "CHIPS" !
Posted by Neil | August 6, 2007 11:19 PM
I see that you escaped the farm again Neil, have you taken your medicine lately? Please don't miss anymore anger management classes.
Posted by M$ DORK | August 7, 2007 12:29 AM
Three issues here:
1. Piracy is the key.
The most growth in sales will be in these markets where piracy is not policed.
So if MS want their cash then they have to make it more attractive to buy real stuff and not buy the dodgy one. You can pretty much ignore the rest.
We consumers in countries where the rules are enforced and being "protected" from "pirated" goods are the ones paying the higher prices.
2. The message this gives is piracy works.
We have had a decade of movie, music and software companies attempting to "pursuade" (force) consumers that the prices they are charged is fair.
Consumers are voting with their broadband and the counts so far suggest they don't agree.
3. The anti-piracy features of XP are clearly useless otherwise all those pirate installations would have been deactivated by now.
Whilst this may sound like I love piracy, I don't. But surely the big media companies should get the message by now.
Posted by ShiverMeTimbers | August 7, 2007 3:21 AM
"High Pricing Encourages Software Piracy"
No. Any kind of pricing encourages piracy. On a computer with a pirated version of Windows, it is more than likely that every other piece of software is pirated too. It's not just a problem with Microsoft, as you make it seem to be.
"Like everything Micro$oft does, the logic in the "big mac" analogy is even more flawed than the Xbox360, if thats possible.
It doesn't cost the same amount, to make a big mac in New York City as China. You use local products, and local labor. Want to bet that they pay those workers at MacDonald's in China the same as NYC? But guess what, a windows cd or dvd, Vista or XP, cost the same anywhere to make."
Your flawed logic again, clips. The cost of extra licenses of Windows is only the cost of the dvd, which is certainly not much. The R&D costs are fixed costs which will exist anyway. Microsoft will spend the same amount on development of Windows, whether or not it sells a thousand extra copies in China.
"So if MS want their cash then they have to make it more attractive to buy real stuff and not buy the dodgy one."
Same flawed argument. People in China don't like to pay for software. Period. If MS really wants its cash, it needs to get the hardware manufacturers in grey markets to preload legitimate copies of Windows onto their machines. That's why the cost cut - to make it more attractive to them. Because, for the grey marketers there is always a risk that they'll get caught if they continue offering pirated versions. I'm sure Joe's research would've shown that... oops... sorry. Didn't know the word "research" was taboo here.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 5:56 AM
Service Pack 1 beta for Vista is coming out on the 14th
;
http://www.thehotfix.net
They supposed to have two fixpacks for Vista already for download that will be included in SP1. "938194 Vista Compatibility and Reliability Pack. and 938979 Vista Performance and Reliability Pack."
"The packs provide a number of performance and reliability improvements to Vista, testers said. Among the new Vista fixes are patches for speeding up Vista?s hibernate/sleep/resume performance; improving file copy/transfer capabilities; and enhancing Vista memory management."
Posted by Repugnant | August 7, 2007 6:05 AM
Reflections said "People in China don't like to pay for software. Period."
Reflections, do you have any source for that generalisation. If you don't then I suggest you retract that statement and apologise.
Posted by William | August 7, 2007 6:46 AM
Neil, please do not contribute if you have nothing to say about the topic on hand. Please do not be a troll all your life.
What's the problem with reducing the price of Vista in China. Here in the UK we pay the same price in £ for Vista as you do in the US in $. Considering that the £ is worth two $ we are effectively paying double in the UK for Vista.
So what's new with different prices for different market. Perhaps MS should should price Vista at the same % of average monthly salary each country it sells in. Wasn't that what the Big Mac index was all about.
Posted by William | August 7, 2007 6:54 AM
"Reflections said "People in China don't like to pay for software. Period."
"Reflections, do you have any source for that generalisation. If you don't then I suggest you retract that statement and apologise."
I should've read what I had written. What I meant to say was that people who indulge in piracy don't want to pay for any software - irrespective of who makes it and how good it is. I apologize for my statement.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 7:54 AM
Piracy is not the primary reason for the price cut. The new Activation for Vista, although not perfect, is pretty effective in reducing piracy and China is not the only country where Microsoft has offered reduced pricing. Microsoft has offered reductions in many countries where goverments participate in a program where they are allowed to look an alter the windows source. This program seems to be pretty effective in preventing govermental agencies in looking at alternatives, namely Linux. As a business tactic Microsoft, has actually made an excellent move with these programs. In the so-called developed countries the alternative is academic licensing.
Posted by evan | August 7, 2007 10:04 AM
Why? Why? Why did Joe have to quote Chips? Now he'll think that he's become somebody important. As if it wasn't bad enough already. Don't get me wrong Chips, I share your point of view on a lot of things but I think there is a way of formulating your thoughts without looking like a complete childish moron. And speaking of morons, M$ DORK, why don't you change your name for Chips II while you're at it?
Now back to the subject. It's a fact that China is the world's #1 maker of counterfeit products, from expensive brands of wallets, watches, etc. to insignificant things like toothpaste; the list is long. My point is, although cutting the price of Vista is a step in the right direction, I really wonder if it will contribute to curve piracy at all. 1$ still is a better deal than 66$.
Evan, of couse Vista's new Activation must help but I would like you to tell me how effective it really is at countering piracy. Vista was supposed to be a real pain for pirates yet it wasn't long before a cracked version was available at the January the launch.
Posted by Ryannoyed | August 7, 2007 10:20 AM
The trouble with China being the #1 counterfeit producer is because China is now the #1 destination for US and European multinationals to produce their products.
Personally I think this is an appalling situation considering the human rights record of the Chinese government. Not to mention the actually working conditions of the Chinese people who have to work in these sweatshops getting paid pennies for products that sell for hundreds of dollars in the western world.
IIRC a considerably amount of the counterfeit products produced by china are actually genuine products from the very factories that produce the genuine articles. Some of these factories are operated by some very suspect businessmen indeed. How about a nice dose of lead in your kids toys anyone?
Posted by william | August 7, 2007 10:58 AM
Sorry, I have to rephrase. Cracked versions of Vista were available even before the launch.
Posted by Ryannoyed | August 7, 2007 11:01 AM
chips
think one could get that hacked vesion OS X from china we talked about? (not implying that anyone is stealing - disclaimer -)
The quality of the "big mac" if made with local resources may not be as good? do all countries have eqaul amount and same quality lettuce cheese pickles beef and bread as to not burn up local resouce that coul be better used than on a "big mac"? would india like it if mcyds killed cows in the country, it is india the sacrade cow. if i wanted to keep big mac consitant. i think of comparing cars, how many cars in China? it is based on demand and the ability to meet the demand as well. And if you want it and can't meet the demand then what do you do steal? Not to many people in China need cars like porche, bmw, mercades as such with software. the demand for software crosses all racial social geopolitcal economic lines. Could it also be ease? is it easier to steal software rather than a cars? i'm done.
yup as i fell asleep i was thinking will ms watch be the same, yup. See you all i am out of here.
Posted by computer guy | August 7, 2007 11:25 AM
does the big mac cost more in Hawaii than Ney York or Alaska or how about another remote state?
Posted by computer guy | August 7, 2007 11:33 AM
I think people here and else where in the USA need to look around here as well. Go to our other big company(Walmart)and you can add other business if you like that the common worker in this great country work and ask them how many have a computer or internet for that matter! There are getting to be more and more people in the USA that cannot afford a computer or internet. When it comes to eating or paying rent/mortgage, health care, or gas for the car to get to work it gets hard to see a value for a computer. At minimum wage or a little above it is hard thing to justify. Linux is going to change things here! You may laugh that off but then maybe you should wake up! When anybody can get a free copy of say Ubuntu 7.04 that can run that old computer at a garage sale or flea market for under a 100.00 and do what you want that is where Linux is making headway. Just do it go and ask a poor person or are you scarred.
Posted by kc9foh | August 7, 2007 12:39 PM
kc9foh
Does it not cost the same for the computer to run Linux or Windows? If you state that the average person can't afford a compturer, but they can when the OS is for free. So the $500 to $1,200 computer becomes free when you get the free Linux OS. I understand that it might cost more to add windows to the already $500 to $1,200 bucks (unless you in china) but how does getting Linux make me not have to pay for that computure? How about the internet bill per month do ISPs let Linux users surf for free and I would not get a bill for the internet that I can't afford?
Posted by mike | August 7, 2007 1:55 PM
And that average user would not know how to install Linux on a computer purchased a garage sale. If they did they migh not be working at Walmart. Not every average user has the brains like you do and figure out how to install an OS even if that is OS X, Linux, Windows, or you name it. All they want to do is use it.
Posted by mike | August 7, 2007 1:58 PM
Quote;
Ryannoyed :
“Why? Why? Why did Joe have to quote Chips? Now he'll think that he's become somebody important. As if it wasn't bad enough already. Don't get me wrong Chips, I share your point of view on a lot of things but I think there is a way of formulating your thoughts without looking like a complete childish moron.”
Why indeed Ryan, perhaps if you posted something of interest for the site maybe Joe would post it.
And speaking of “complete childish morons,” perhaps you also have descended to that level, if you think about it by implying that I am. Do not worry, I know that I am not important on this site, it will go on without either you or I, or those of Neil's point of view. Not that he has one that differs from the official MS line.
Also, Ryan, you can also at times actually have something to say interesting, although, its not often. You like to pretend to be above it all, but really some of your posts are equally Troll-like. If you think about, you might be smart enough to figure that out. I really doubt you share any of my point of view.
Quote'
reflections :
“Your flawed logic again, clips. The cost of extra licenses of Windows is only the cost of the dvd, which is certainly not much.”
Reflections, if you re read my post again, I think you will find that this really is the basic point I was trying to make. Unlike a Big Mac that does cost more money to make in one place than another, the CD or DVD cost almost the same to make anywhere. And your line, of the extra licenses is so elementerary, is not worth writing, But, I have to say this, its nice to see you actually join the discussion in a meaningful way, instead of just blindly attacking people. I hope you will try to continue to add to the discussion in a meaningful way.
To Computer Guy;
Quote;
“does the big mac cost more in Hawaii than Ney York or Alaska or how about another remote state?”
I don't know, I have never been to “Ney York,” but I have been to New York. Now that I got that bit of Trollness done I feel better. Although, I still can't spell any better than you, except for some of your posts, which are almost unreadable.
To kc9foh :
You made some good points, nice to see thinkers here. I am not just saying that because you seem Pro-Linux, but because you pointed out a fact that there is a working poor here in this country that really are far better off without the M$ Tax.
To everyone here at M$ Watch;
So I have been a Troll at times, I agree. When I came here months ago I watched Neil and his ink, constantly attack others, whenever they posted anything slightly negative about M$. It is impossible to argue a point with Neil, as he doesn't care about the facts, but only his emotions. Some, if not a lot of you out there, fall into the same category as Neil. Some of you are salvageable and maybe can offer some meaningful ideas to this site.
Even the Pro Linux people have told me that I have resorted to Troll like attacks, although, truth be known most of these Pro Linux people are not what they claim to be. Even so, they are right. Because at some point, you figure it out, that it takes a Troll to stop a Troll. Or in this case, a bunch of Trolls.
People do need to point out to Neil that he offers nothing of interest to this site. Don't believe I have ever seen a post where Neil was not attacking someone, unless its one where he had to defend himself from me, the anti-Troll. I hate to resort to this kind of tactic, but people need to grow up.
You don't like what Joe posts, fine. State what you disagree with, why, and, most importantly some “real” facts why. If you really disagree, then finding a site you like is better. And intelligent people do not need bogus facts from “Just the Facts” type websites.
It a low thing to attack Joe Willcox who makes his livelihood by writing these articles, without any basis in fact. That is being a Troll, and even a little more. Now I don't agree with everything Joe posts either, for example, his reason why he had to buy Office 2007 (delayed to 2008) for the Mac. I believe I know the real reason, Joe does a lot of blogging and is willing to pay for the lock in of the new file format, as he views it as a must have, because other bloggers will be using it. So thats why I do sometimes defend Joe, because generalized attacks on a man's livelihood without any real facts to back them up, are wrong and low. Maybe even a step lower than being a Troll.
Now some of you have said you wanted respect from me. You can get it by adding to the discussion in a meaningful way, and stop being Trolls yourself. Some of you want me to stop using the $ symbol. Wrong, its my keyboard, get over it. As Bill Gates would say, “Live isn't fair, get over it.” If I chose to write M$ or Micro$oft, that is my chose, not yours. Last I knew, we were still free to do that here in the USA. Perhaps some of you are just too “sensitive” about it, or just want to be Trolls. I would rather not post Troll like posts, and would rather just discuss and add to the conversation, but I will reserve my right to fight Trollness with Trollness when necessary. I do wish we could all get along here, even Neil, but doubt that will happen.
Posted by chips | August 7, 2007 2:26 PM
Not all poor people are dumb or stupid! there are a few that would at least know how to change their oil or put air in their tires! there are many reasons they don't have the money. The town they live in doesn't have good paying jobs because the companies shipped the jobs overseas or consolidated to another town and it costs money to afford a move. Try having kids and not being able to afford new shoes or clothes let alone a 500.00 computer. Or they are disabled and only get a 600.00 a month check. With rent going for almost the same. I hear all the time that this or that software will empower the people to get a better life, well how is that supposed to happen if they cannot afford it. And it isn't just Microsoft it is the other companies as well. Look you have to have office and antivirus and other programs in order to get it to do even basic things with safety. As far as I know correct me if I am wrong but I don't see one laptop for every child happening in this country either. People have to realize that there are people here that cannot afford to get with it mentality from those who are already with it!
Posted by kc9foh | August 7, 2007 2:58 PM
Kc9foh;
Someone who is adding to the conversation, Thank you. Totally agree with your points!
Posted by Chips | August 7, 2007 3:29 PM
Could somone translate this four me:
"Not so you could go out a pirate the maybe disk, but so you would know you were just wasting your time. Trying to help someone who is a complete JERK."
- chips -
It is spelt correctly but I'm still trying to decipher it.
Posted by Computer Guy | August 7, 2007 3:59 PM
I did not say they where dumb or stupid. Just because one does not have the brain power to install an OS does not make them dumb. I can't do brain surgery does that make me stupid. Do you think one could afford the education to learn computers in one of those poor courtiers? I could with easy teach someone how to change a tire. And to be sensible I think it would be more important to get these people the education and the food and other resources before we start trying to get them a laptop and or a computer. Maybe lower rent make food cheaper then we can start to make the computers cheaper. I think three nice round meals (not Big Macs) will empower the people more than a laptop.
Sorry for the misspellings that last post might have been from my Smartphone, I did not have a spell checker on the side.
Posted by Computer Guy | August 7, 2007 4:08 PM
Computer Guy:
All wages are relative to the country you live in. Thus the wages of a teacher in one of those "poor countries" will be in line with the rest of the workforce.
And lets be honest about it Computer Guy learning to use a computer isn't very difficult at the end of the day. You just have to be methodolical and have some patience. The only hard thing about learning about computers is the Jargon. And we all know why industries use Jargon, don't we.
These "poor people" are just as capable of operating a computer as you or I. If they are given the chance.
Posted by William | August 7, 2007 4:17 PM
To Computer Guy;
Yes I believe I can help you out with your translation here, or "decipher" it as you put it.
First of all, you took that statement completely out context, so the meaning somewhat changed. 2nd you in other posts pretended to be someone who you are not, a Mac and Linux users, and pretended to want advice? That so you could try to use "entrapment." When that did not work, you tried to change my words to others words. 3rd, see the above post about Trolls. 4th, not only does Troll apply to you, but JERK clearly does.
also, I believe that only you and Neil both mis-spell the word (or use) "spelt." Clearly you and Neil are one and the same person. So the question is, how many other people are you Neil?
Posted by Chips | August 7, 2007 4:19 PM
I cut my teeth on a ZX80. We did not get taught computers in school for a further 3 years. I, with a lot of others at the time, basically taught ourselves about computers.
Thus you don't even need a teacher to teach you how to use a computer. You just need enough people with an interest in the subject and the opportunity and time to experiment.
Maybe MS is cutting the price because of the $100 laptop that is to be given out to children in the 3rd world. Now remind me what OS that is using again. Hmmm.
Posted by William | August 7, 2007 4:24 PM
OK, check out this post from MS Watch;
www.microsoft-watch.com/content/vista/i_shacked_up_with_windows_vista.html
In it Neil uses and misspells "spelt" just like computer guy. Its about 2/3's of the way down in the comments right now.
Here is his (Neil)exact words;
"Oh ! by the way "valad" is spelt "valid" mate !"
----------------------------------------------------
computer guy = Neil = Troll
Posted by chips | August 7, 2007 4:53 PM
So the question is? Is Neil/computer guy a Troll only, or someone with an agenda, such as a M$ PAID $hill. He tries to pretend to be both smart and dumb in some of his alias'es.
Just because Neil the poster pretends to be dumb, does not mean he is. One of the best defenses for MS Shills is to pretend to be stupid if caught. Therefore nobody will think of them as working for M$.
You can think of it this way, MS is on target this year to gross 100 billion, and it has already done unsavory things such as to try and bribe the wiki, and give away laptops to bloggers who write about Vista when it came out. Do you really think that M$ would not stoop so low when this type of money is involved?
Neil and Computer Guy are exposed for what they are. They will just change there username and email addresses and be back again.
Posted by Chips | August 7, 2007 5:28 PM
Excellent analysis, Joe. Also, it feels good when ideas are appreciated. But it seems that awakens some “jealousy” from some (ha,ha,ha.)
Another point to take into account and in the line of thought of software assurances is that times change. And what it was not, it will be, same as with the apparition of competition: Dell, Lenovo, and apparently HP will impulse Linux (and it seems Dell is faring alright.) Apple has also decided to become more competitive, widening its market share- which will mean a renewed competition (this being just the beginning of a real contest.) MS will compete against itself no further; and I realize MS is planing well ahead.
All this can be assumed, among other things, like an economic sample. MS is testing the market, and if it works, it will be taken to both emerging markets and established marked.
I also think the obscene price charged by MS for Vista Ultimate will be the last one we will ever see, then prices will start to shrink (accompanied by Ballmer's cries.) Therefore, waters (prices) will level up in a nearby future.
Macro...err..Marco.
Posted by Marco | August 7, 2007 5:32 PM
chips, Just me and only me.
Well I just hope that when I donate my computers to the poor that is where they go.
Could the governments of these poor countries contribute to the issues or fixing of the issue. For not having food, education, let alone a computer or software to run on it?
chips, I might have even worked OSs you may not even heard of. I'm open minded lets all work together. Here are some of the obscure ones HP UX (UNIX) on a HP 3000 there was the Amiga OS, Banyan Vines, not that I would call IOS a full fledge OS but worked on that as well.
did I splt spelt spilt anything wring 4 u.
I wish MS would pay me some of those billions of dollars but nope.
-----
William
Yes self taught is an option when I was learning computers there was no teacher. How many people konw of computer back in the day. But someone could afford the computer I worked on as a kid. Again if like my government at the time (my parents) could help me could these people have someone step in and help them? MS cuts the price but to help the poor or stop the piracy. You are right at the bear minimum they need a computer and yes hacking away with any OS would be great.
Posted by Computer Guy | August 7, 2007 6:02 PM
clips, in any case, your argument in flawed. Most people who buy the OS in the US get it preinstalled by OEMs. No one is going to take the trouble of buying a PC, removing the OS, asking for a refund, buying the OS from China, and installing it on their system.
Regarding Jose, if he really wanted to be fair, he'd focus on FUD that competitors spread about MS too. It's naive to say that it's non-existent. Could there be any other reason for focusing only on MS FUD? Maybe, but that and the overall tone of his articles surely make me suspicious about his intentions.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 6:11 PM
Computer Guy;
Quote;
"I'm open minded lets all work together."
----------------------------------------------------
No your not Neil, "spelt" it anyway you like, whats the odds of only two people like you and Neal using and misspelling the same word? Not likely at all.
Posted by Chips | August 7, 2007 6:19 PM
Chips: You know why, when you refer to MS with a dollar sign($), it conveys some annoyance to its (seemingly) fanboys?
Because they feel talked about.
That symbol describes exactly what Ms is-something which does not care for anything except extracting the biggest profit of us all. Also, the symbol denoted those who gain a living by defending MS. Trouble is, they’re betrayed by their subconscious. And they are apparently irritated by you and those who use the symbol. However, they are only masking their irritation with themselves (psychology of the first degree) proof of this is that you can be called “clips” or linux “linu$”-or whatever, and you are not offended. Why? Because it is not true. If it was true, you would be irritated.
In other words, what I mean is that every time you write M$, they feel alluded to and react to that. And, even though you said that they are just one, it is not so-they are just united in their reaction.
Remember, truth hurts.
Posted by Marco | August 7, 2007 6:21 PM
Macro, I'm sure Joe gave you the license to write crap on his site. Using "M$" or "crApple" or even "Lunix" is derogatory. Just because its your computer and your keyboard shouldn't give you the right to write whatever nonsense you want. Using the same logic, I could even address your mom as a wh*re.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 6:28 PM
See, Chips? ha,ha,ha.
Posted by Marco | August 7, 2007 6:31 PM
"See, Chips? ha,ha,ha."
Ha ha ha. That was funny. Maybe you should take some time off from your computer and take night classes where they teach you to write. It'll help you a lot in future.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 6:35 PM
Anyway, I was only showing you how twisted your logic was. I guess I can't expect anymore people who blindly hate Microsoft only because the company makes money.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 6:39 PM
Marco,
I could say the using the $ symbol in M$ has actually taken on new meaning for me. As I sadly, I almost am beginning to enjoy the fact that it bothers some of the mentally challenged here.
Also, you might be right, with some the $ is a reminder that they are enserfed to M$.
But then, at least the Fanboys have something to repeatedly write about, cause its going be had for most of them to come up with any original idea.
In the end I think Joe Willcox will have to use a bit of what the online forums use, moderators to restrict posters who only attack. He should start by removing those who only attack what he writes, in a purely generic way, without quoting anything from the current post, or backing up anything they disagree with. Censorship, is not a nice feature, but even here in the USA, we don't allow anyone to yell Fire in a public building, without a fire. There are limits, if you want to keep a debate going that is productive and reasonable.
Just hope I "spelt" that right, LOL. What are the odds? A million to one?
Posted by Chips | August 7, 2007 6:51 PM
It was obvious a reaction was going to occur. I wrote it to prove my point. Action leads to reaction. If reflections was not a shill, he would not be offended. The trouble here is that he has not realised he is practically naked...and we are all looking.
Well, take it easy, reflections. We'll continue this another day. Bye.
Posted by Marco | August 7, 2007 6:53 PM
"As I sadly, I almost am beginning to enjoy the fact that it bothers some of the mentally challenged here."
So what if I'm an MS fanboy or shill. Just because Joe lends legitimacy to your arguments doesn't mean that you're right, clips. Despite your holier than thou attitude, you're nothing but an anti-MS fanatic and your acting uppity doesn't change facts.
Macro, if you think I'm ashamed of what I've said, you're mistaken. Unfortunately, there's only one way to counter fanatics like you - with an equal amount of fanaticism. You both started attacking me when I said something about Joe. Remember that. What are you, Joe's mouthpieces?
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 7:01 PM
Unfortunately, you guys believe that having a keyboard and an internet connection gives you the right to say whatever you want. Reasoning with people like you hardly ever works, as is evident from your attitude. Get off your high horse. You're no better than I am.
Posted by reflections | August 7, 2007 7:04 PM
Quote from Chips:
"Why indeed Ryan, perhaps if you posted something of interest for the site maybe Joe would post it."
True. I agree with you.
"And speaking of “complete childish morons,” perhaps you also have descended to that level, if you think about it by implying that I am."
Correction. I said that the way you post makes you LOOK LIKE a childish moron, which is different from saying that you ARE one. But who am I to judge? After all, there are good chances that I am one myself. Of course when I complain about your posting style I certainly don't use myself as a comparison but rather someone like Douglas. You could learn from him (and I could too).
"Do not worry, I know that I am not important on this site, it will go on without either you or I, or those of Neil's point of view. Not that he has one that differs from the official MS line."
Seriously, besides your point of view on MS, there's not much difference between you and Neil whom you're so obsessed about.
"Also, Ryan, you can also at times actually have something to say interesting, although, its not often."
I can still count my total number of posts on this site with the fingers of one hand. I'm a regular visitor but I don't spend my whole day here or investigating about MS. But I'll get better with time; have faith in me.
"You like to pretend to be above it all, but really some of your posts are equally Troll-like. If you think about, you might be smart enough to figure that out. I really doubt you share any of my point of view."
Pretending nothing. I know that if I were above all that I simply wouldn't come to this site at all. I'm far from impartial here as I like the critical tone of Joe's articles towards MS. Still, one can be critical of MS without going on a full crusade against them and their supporters, or "paid $hills" as you like to call them. I'm aware that the majority of my few posts have been critical of you but I still think that you often bring up good points that I agree with. Of course you're free not to believe me.
"Because at some point, you figure it out, that it takes a Troll to stop a Troll."
No. It takes a Troll to invigorate another Troll and start a never-ending Troll war.
Posted by Ryannoyed | August 7, 2007 7:12 PM
Ryannoyed;
Some fair points, I will think about them.
Posted by Chips | August 7, 2007 7:28 PM
Anyone who has traveled in Asia knows you can buy most software for less than $5. Piracy is rampant and China shares a bigger part of the blame than other countries because the "players" in these businesses are often government/military officials and their families.
It's funny to watch U.S. and EU companies pay big $$$ and jump through WGA and license hoops while Asians generally get it all free. Steve Ballmer tries to pretend that the 90% of the world who don't play by his rules will get religion and pay up. LOL -- talk about naive!
Posted by Joy | August 8, 2007 11:07 AM
The price of software in Asia doesn't matter. Most people here in the U.S. get software for free through warez, torrents, and P2P because it is just too damned expensive for the average person to afford. When are you people going to understand that? When are you going to understand that the future of commercial software is doomed? Currently, the only new innovations in software development come from open source. The commercial software developers are too busy dealing with their lawyers and lawsuits. Mar my words, all software will eventually become open source and nobody will make a profit off it. And that's good.
Posted by topax | August 8, 2007 9:48 PM
reflections, I totally fail how you can be derogatory about a multinational company. Are you saying that international companies have feelings like humans and can be hurt by someone using the $ sign instead of the letter S.
I am sorry, but I cannot believe you are comparing calling someones mother a wh*re and using a $ sign instead of the letter s in a company name.
If you feel as strong about MS as you do about your own mother then I suggest you need to speak to a therapist.
Posted by William | August 9, 2007 7:10 AM
Security implications of piracy:
If Microsoft cared about its customers' security, it would offer all critical security updates to everybody, whether running legitimate copies of Windows or pirated.
Since they don't, the rise of unstoppable botnets is assured.
Posted by nerd6 | August 9, 2007 6:13 PM
"reflections, I totally fail how you can be derogatory about a multinational company. Are you saying that international companies have feelings like humans and can be hurt by someone using the $ sign instead of the letter S."
OK. Do countries have feelings? Why do you respect your country then? Also, if you respect certain people only because they have feelings then shame on you. You respect things that are worthy of respect and the fact that Microsoft has achieved so much is worthy of respect in my opinion.
"I am sorry, but I cannot believe you are comparing calling someones mother a wh*re and using a $ sign instead of the letter s in a company name."
I was responding to macro's statement that it's his keyboard and he can do whatever he likes, you idiot.
"If you feel as strong about MS as you do about your own mother then I suggest you need to speak to a therapist."
The same goes for you.
Posted by reflections | August 9, 2007 10:31 PM
piracy helps moronsoft to keep their monopoly
ok bribe also helps, so the low price is nothing than a dumping campain (they also use the 3$ package windows/office)
Posted by dan | August 10, 2007 9:49 AM