That T60 Thinkpad is one heck of a laptop Joe. If anything should be able to run Vista without problems, it should.

Now that you have Vista installed on it, why not check on its main problem? Software compatibility.

What I mean by this is programs and the versions of those programs that worked in XP. Nero 6 thru 6.5, Winavi, PowerDVD, WinDVD, see how many apps a normal user would have trouble installing. Hint, the ones with the most problems will be related to multimedia and cd/dvd burning.

The reason I harp on this is because, if you have to buy all newer versions of these apps, it gets very expensive to replace your 3rd party software.

Wow chips almost stuck to the subject. I guess upgrading software goes along with upgrading Vista. I'm sorry what was so expensive with the upgrade? If some one does not include the cost of upgrading applications when upgrading the OS it is who's fault (Buyer beware as my teacher says)? The cost to do an upgrade is not just the OS. And don't give me the idea that it should be free. If it is not broken then don't upgrade then it will be free, stick with XP or what ever. This is not a free market and as long as we pay for food and band aids things that are more import we will pay for less important things like software.
And let me see how expensive these applicaitons you mention are:

Movie Players
-----------------
PowerDVD SE $14.95 (if you want to be cheep)
PowerDVD 7 $49.95
PowerDVD Ultra $99.95
WinDVD 8 $49.99

CD/DVD Burnner
------------------------
Nero 8 $79.99
Nero Upgrade $28.00

And if you get me a link for WinAvi I can complete the research you should have done before you gave out the idea that it would be expensive to upgrade. Ok so I only need one product from both groups. I bet I could find a cheeper CD/DVD burner than Nero but anyway the upgrade of those two combined would be $95 (we are being cheep right? so Power DVD SE and Nero). Am I'm missing something if this is the total cost to upgrade base on your example what is this too expensive? I understand for some, but when doing the total cost of an upgrade this would be what percentage?
And what if I already had something that worked on Vista would there be any cost to upgrade for applications? Or did you mean to list some other software that maybe cost $150 or more to upgrade bring the total software upgrade cost to maybe $250 to $400?

Joe, it is a dobule edge sword and I know what you mean, try this with a RTM XP with no SP. It is like 60 downloads then SP2 then 60 more updates and then 30 then 20..... But would we like to not have the 36+ upgrades and have a system that is vulnerable?

Correction we are upgrading so that would be an upgraded Nero and Power DVD SE (don't know if there is an update price for Power DVD but 15 bucks come on). The total upgrade would be $45.00 or $95.00 only if you don't already own Nero. Again $45.00 is too expensive to upgrade. Are you finacialy sound or do you write software for free and could not afford $45.00 to upgrade?

Those are just the tip of the iceburg, with 60% of the windows xp software failing to install or work on Vi$ta.

My bad that looks incomplete let me include the Vista price. And because we are being cheep why would we need Aero so Vista Basic it is. A quick check at Bestbuy.com shows that:

Vista Home Basic Upgrade to be $98.00
total cost to upgrade $150 ($45 for software).
$150 to expensive? Being cheep you more than likely never upgraded your PowerVR and Voodo Garhpics card so no need to get Aero to run so don't complain. That would cost money. That brings up a good question why is that software is free but all hardware cost money? Is it because the cost to make hardware is more tangable than writing software?

If you don't want to be too cheep.
Vista Home Premium Upgrade $160
total cost to upgrade $200.

And the full blown upgrade with more hardware upgrades to get Aero and 3D flip (but why I don't know stick with Premium or Basic)
Vista Home Ultima Upgrade $260
total upgrade cost of $300.

Back it up chips, give us the expensive software that makes it too expensive to upgrade? or the software that does not work with no upgrade in sight becaue the copany supporting the softwrae won't upgrade to Vista? Or the company is no longer around to make a fix that will make it work on Vista?

There are lists on the internet if you want to search for them of incompatable Vista software. Also, at this point, even the surveys have said that the number one complaint about Vista is software compatablity.

So don't expect me to do your homework for you. Reguards, Chips

Why should I do your work to support you statements. Almost all your post come with a link. Where is the link to the list? Where is the link to the survey? Why are there no links with your last few posts? Until then they are just statements?
in case anyone needs to see the pricing for application upgrades listed.

Power DVD
www.cyberlink.com/multi/cyberstore/cyberstore.jsp

WinDVD
store.corel.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?partNumber=OL_WD08PLAT&srcid=&pculicenseid=&promocode=0&countryCode=US&storeId=10302&catalogId=10103&langId=-1

Nero 8
www.nero.com/enu/store.html

Nero 8 Upgrade
www.nero.com/enu/store-upgrade-center.html

Vista Upgrades at Best Buy
www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=1G5DNVFPHJ3PPKC4D3KFAHA?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=vista+upgrade&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960

Vista worries cause businesses to consider Macs and Linux

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS5118924882.html

Quotes from the link:

"KACE, a systems management appliance company, announced on Nov. 19 that its new survey revealed that 90 percent of the Windows users are concerned about migrating to Vista, and that 44 percent would consider deploying Macs or Linux-based systems to avoid Vista migration.

"Microsoft, up to this point, has been fighting an uphill battle with Vista largely due to software compatibility and stability issues which are scaring off IT departments from deploying it," said Diane Hagglund of King Research, which conducted the survey for KACE."
--------------------------------------------------
There those words again folks, SOFTWARE COMPATIBILITY with Vi$ta. Or rather, the lack of it.

Joe I think you were being a bit unfair about your Mac OS 10.0 comment. However I would agree that Vista does not deserve a spot in the top 10 worst tech products of all time.

The thing to remember about Mac OS 10.0 is that despite the version 10 designation, represented by the roman numeral X, 10.0 was really version 1.0.0 of a completely new operating system. While Windows Vista is only a revision, albeit a major one, to an existing operating system. Back when we had the so called "Pillars of Longhorn," it appeared Microsoft was ready to rebuild Windows in a similar fashion as Apple had when it migrated away from the Mac OS "Classic" base. However that idea, as we all know, didn't exactly go according to plan.

The other differences between the Windows Vista release and the original Mac OS X release are, Apple knew their new OS was incomplete, and thus continued to ship every Mac with OS 9 as the default, but also included OS X so people could begin to familiarize themselves with the new OS. It would not be till 10.1.2 that new Macs would boot OS X by default.

Apple also immediately started releasing updates and fixes for OS X, but combined them together with intermediate OS builds rather then offering many separate updates.

Also in September of that year, 10.1 was made freely available for 10.0 buyers, enabling OS X to begin real work. As an aside, I remember walking into the Apple Store and asking for the 10.1 update, expecting to be handed a burned CD-R. However the clerk reached under the counter and gave me a portfolio style retail box labeled Mac OS X 10.1 Update. Later I discovered just how trusting Apple was, the "update CD" was actually a full copy of 10.1, that did not require a previous OS X installation.

Sick 'em Joe!

Outstanding statement in your comments about the folks rating what is the worst OS and such as to the Seventh Grade. Did these folks never experienced Windows Me?

Cripes, I can go on with a quick list of bad operating systems, certainly my vote will swing to Windows Me as the top dawg of the group.

Let's go a little further back, how about MS DOS 6.2 that was a dawg too. MS-DOS 6.22 was an improvement especially when using Central Point Software's PC Tools 7.0 Deluxe and the fantastic DOS menu. Whoops, I am showing my age a little bit.

Windows vista does deserve to be on the list because of it's major failings from it's orginal conception in 2003. The vista we have now is a very pale copy.

I never had a problem with Windows ME, a lot of the problems were hyped up with that product, in fact it was one of the fastest directx platforms.

As for Dos, it was a solid product, ok it didn't do multitasking, but it was very solid single tasking OS. The difference between 6.2 and 6.22 were to do with two things. The first was a bug in the compression routines in which you could compress your hard disk, the other reason for 6.22 was that microsoft included software/technology without getting the full permission, 6.22 wasn't really much different to 6.2. The fastest and best version of dos was 5, the worst was 4.

Joe:What sad is our life
After you paid a lot money for a bad product (Windows Vista)you are "surprisingly impressed" for something(Windows Update) that normally should be good or excellent (for its excessive price.)
-----------

http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx?dg=microsoft.public.windowsupdate&tid=d371c217-5461-49be-9c4b-fecac8b0573b&p=1
Quote:I cannot seem to install the last 2 updates for vista, dunno why but it aint
even telling me what the problem is, they both have a different error code!

South Africa, Netherlands and Korea striding toward ODF
But France is still making the strongest move to ODF and its native office suite, OpenOffice
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1351236114
The ODF Alliance now claims 500 members. By the alliance's count, 13 nations have announced laws or rules that favor the use ODF -- the native file format in the free, open-source OpenOffice productivity software -- over Microsoft's Office formats, such as Office Open XML.

Those nations include Russia, Malaysia, Japan, France, Belgium, Croatia, Denmark, Germany and Norway.
--------------

Anybody of you tech geniuses smart enough to see that Verizon has put VCSY/Now Solutions SAAS to good use, yet Microsoft is still stuck in the mud!!

Verizon is going agnostic with their operational platform.

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?m=tm&bn=12004&tid=1318371&mid=1318371&tof=6&rt=2&frt=1&off=1

How DO you think they can do that?

Isn't THAT surprising? Why can't you do that Microsoft shareholder?

Originally posted: November 27, 2007
Open software platform, Verizon style
Posted by Eric Benderoff at 11:00 a.m.

It looks like the nation?s second largest wireless carrier is following in the footsteps of a company that hasn?t yet delivered its well-publicized product for the mobile phone.

Verizon announced this morning that it would open its phone operating platform to outside developers to create programs that will work on its network. Earlier this month, Google announced Android, a software platform that allows any developer to create mobile applications.

But the Android announcement, which did not include information on the phones that open software platform will work on, also included a coalition of other firms, including T-Mobile and Sprint. Verizon and AT&T are not in the so-called Open Handset Alliance.

That?s what likely prompted today?s announcement, as marketplace changes could start to significantly alter how people use wireless devices starting next year. Apple, too, said last month that its iPhone, serviced by AT&T, will allow outside developers to create programs.

Yet Verizon also added a new wrinkle, saying "any device" that meets its network?s "minimal technical standards" can be used on its network. It is unclear what "any device" means at this point, but Verizon hopes it will spur innovation, the company said.

(more at URL)

"any device"

Now THAT is a WOW.

"There are lists on the internet if you want to search for them of incompatable Vista software. Also, at this point, even the surveys have said that the number one complaint about Vista is software compatablity.

So don't expect me to do your homework for you. Reguards, Chips"

translation: chips was just talking out of his azz again.

For me Windows Vista is among 10 BEST products of all the time
It got wake up to the people and understand what blinds , stupids and ignorants we were (for let to MS enslaving to us)

Joe, next time you have to install Vista, remember that you can install it even without a CD key. Just leave the prompt blank and then choose the version that you bought. You can enter the key and activate Windows afterward.

Well, perhaps this is....
Access Exhaustive List of Compatible and Incompatible Windows Vista Software
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Access-Exhaustive-List-of-Compatible-and-Incompatible-Windows-Vista-Software-67510.shtml

Hey Paul, did you even bother to check out those Vista software incompatibilities? Lots of blogs have short lists. Or are you merely assuming that since thelist hasn't been handed to you that Vista doesn't have such incompatibilities?

The most-obvious fatal flaw in WinVista is its baked-in DRM (what is DRM doing in a "business" OS anyway?), which can be turned against it as a weapon. What's to keep a Trojan or other malware from simply generating spurious tilt bits at random intervals to cause random resets or reboots -- or locking out system hardware altogether? We have already seen tilt-bit-related system failures triggered by the installation of approved ATI graphics drivers -- the malware writers just have to wait until the Vista installed base reaches critical mass, then bring the whole structure crashing down with one class (or piece!) of malware.

As has been pointed out in the past, the problem with DRM is simple. Sure, the content is in a "locked box" -- but the provider HAS to provide a key to open it, and sooner-or-later, somebody is going to make a copy of that key -- and in the meantime, dealing with the locks is a needless hassle for legitimate users. Peter Gutmann and Bruce Schneier are right!

~~ Michael

I simply cannot believe some of the stuff I am reading on here. I mean come on! How much are you people getting paid to go pro Vista? And where do I sign up?

a) I am in many PC fields. I own a little computer store that deals with thousands of pc’s from a community of about 50,000 people. This store deals with everything from building new pc’s, (system builder), down to the “my mouse won’t click!” customer.

b) I am also an administrator of a local ISP, which does dial-up, DSL, Wireless broadband, and web hosting.
c) I also am also a web designer on the side for large network clients that like the “one man show” kind of thing
d) And I also do small, mid, and larger network jobs for telecommunication companies, and your typical manufacturing companies.

I say this ONLY because I want you to understand that I can’t pass the buck here. If someone has an Internet problem, I can’t say, “It’s your pc. Call your manufacturer!” Or if someone has a PC/OS problem that causes slowness on the net, I can’t say, “it’s a connection problem, call your ISP”. When someone upgrades one piece of software and something else quits working I can’t say, “Well, call the local software place and charge it out of the budget you have allotted your IT department!” (Namely because I play all the rolls)

Now, as a businessman I understand the ploy Microsoft is doing here and it’s genius. If I had the market by the balls, I might consider it as well. But, in the position I am in now I have to look at it from the end user point of view.

In today’s market, a new computer buyer is normally replacing an older PC. In MANY, if not MOST cases, older software that works on XP IS NOT limited to a single pc. Only a single station! (For you people stuck in ‘Microsoft point of veiw’ too long, that means you ARE allowed to install your software on your new pc if you aren’t going to use it on your old one any more.) So, in good conscience I always recommend to a new PC buyer that has older software to ALWAYS buy the new PC with XP Pro on it, not Vista. But, since there are people out there like some of you, I am making a killing in the end. The reason? Because somewhere, someone told them Vista is the newest and therefore, the best. And that’s what they want and get. Within a month I see them again and sell them hundreds of dollars of the software to upgrade/replace the “most important” software with products that work with Vista. Then, within another few months I see them again with the old PC. Turns out they want the hardware “upgraded” as much as it can go so they can have an XP machine in the corner to run that “other stuff” that just won’t work in Vista. And it gets better! Then, shortly after that, I end up selling them a OEM XP cd with a few bits of hardware (to make Microsoft OEM requirements happy), so they can format the Vista drive and put XP on their new pc!.

Now, if we look at this with a “glass half full” point of view, then in reality everyone wins. Microsoft wins because they are selling 2 operating systems for every 1 new pc. Hardware manufactures are selling not only new machine hardware but also an increase of upgrade hardware. And software companies are selling upgraded software as well.

Problem is, I have a live with watching people do this to themselves. Granted, one guy stated earlier, “People should think of these things before hand. (buyer beware)”. Wellllllll, maybe. But then again, people look to people like me and people like the guy who wrote this article to know “better”. Even if they were “smart enough” to listen, look at the other aspects they would have to “filter” through. An example would be the one user who honestly stated that unless someone listed a link of “incompatible software”, then it is just a theory of some kind. I mean come on!??? For someone who doesn’t know any better, that might seem like a good point. But to ANYONE who has had to deal with ANYTHING in regards to Vista and NORMAL day to day operations, knows that the incompatibility issues are not just a “theory”, they are physically more substantial than gravity on earth!!!!!

That being said, I just could not read any farther without at least giving anyone who is looking for real answers, a REAL point of view based on hundreds of problems in all situations of home, business, and net. Not just one person’s point of view who thinks they have it figured out because they managed to install Vista on 1 damn laptop!

Thank you for your time.

Excellent post Curt Mechling.

yes thank you Curt Mechling.

Vista Is Still Plagued by Incompatibilities

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,138693/article.html

Quote: "Nine months since its release, lots of hardware and software products still don't work with Microsoft's operating system, including some that are certified as Vista compatible."

----------------------------------------------------
Not sure, but I believe I found WinAVI version 7 on one of those compatible lists, that would not install at all in Vi$ta. To be fair, to M$, it might not have been "their list," but perhaps a 3rd party list, do not remember, its been awhile now. Now I know WinAVI is not an expensive program like say Autocad for example, but it was what the customer had and wanted installed. Businesses will probably have problems also with the expensive software.

Not only are there many "missing" printers drivers that will never be made, there are many existing TV cards that will never work in Vi$ta. One wonders about scanners, cameras and modems.

Great Post Dear, thank you for sharing.