I celebrated Vista's birthday by downloading Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora 10. Thanks Vista! You have been great for the Linux community! Whoever says Vista sucks...shame on them ... :-)

I have XP on all my home computers and my company still standardizes on XP for all corporate workstations, with no plans for Vista. I bought new home computers just before Vista came along and hope they last till after Vista is gone. I used to have a Vista VirtualPC image, but have since deleted it as there really is no demand for Vista. People I know who've bought new computers with Vista, fight with it for a few months and then finally bite the bullet and install XP. Oh, well time to update my Fedora 9 VPC image to Fedora 10.

I think Vista is fixable, since Windows Server 2008 is also based on the Vista kernel and seems to be quite a good product. Just a matter of getting rid of all the UI gadget bloat, UAC, DRM and other useless stuff put in their strictly for MS's benefit.

If your car stopped moving for 1-3 minutes, 10-15 times daily, would you just go around complaining about it, or would you get it diagnosed and fixed? I don't know what it is about software that makes complaining the preferred response to a problem. Are there any manmade products that work flawlessly forever?

I think it can be stated unequivocally that many people run Vista successfully (use your own definition for "many"). If you are having a different experience, please, before you have to increase your blood pressure medicine, get it diagnosed and fixed. I recommend starting with the FREE Microsoft support at https://support.microsoft.com/oas/default.aspx?ln=en-us&prid=11274&gprid=500921. Failing that, there's paid support, newsgroups, Experts-Exchange, etc. I'm sure Google can offer you dozens of support forums where people will help you at no cost.

Of course, you run the risk of finding out that what's freezing your PC is an improperly configured security suite you installed without reading the manual, or a Trojan your kid picked up while downloading pirated MP3s. But even if that's the case, you'll be happier once it's fixed.

Vista did a lot for Microsoft, but somehow I don't think MSFT is celebrating its birthday.

"Over the past twelve months, Windows lost 2.8 points of market share, more than in any other year in the operating system’s 23-year history (Windows 1.0 was released in November 1985.)"

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/40398/113/

Hapi bday VISTA! I like vista, coz it's stable and secure(and thus I can't change back using XP..), u will find none or less blue screen on it(both mine & my client), someone always say it comsume big resources, but the big resouces behind is the secure and stable OS, and the HW price is low, so I dont think it cause problem(surely running XP on the same HW seem faster but pls be reminded that the OS "qualility is DIFFERENT!"), so I hope more ppl is going to use vista in coming year!

Ralph
In your first comment you stated "I celebrated Vista's birthday by downloading Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora 10."
Tell me something why two ?? And if one is better than the other again why two ??
Joe
As for your comment regarding Vista as MEII ... not funny mate ! I currently use Vista and I had Windows ME, the two are not comparable at all. I couldn't wait to get back to 98SE with all the BSOD that I had, whereas with Vista I have never had one at all.
And as for Windows 7 being built on top of Vista... well what was Windows 98, it was built on Windows 95. And of course the very successful 98SE (Second Edition).
It the way with OS's that they are built from the previous ones until a really radical difference in the core of the OS is made, which Vista was.
I have a copy of Windows 7 Pre Beta and it is really good (even though it is a pre beta) I will be very much looking forward to seeing the RTM version when it is released to the public.
Most of your article is taken up with rehashes of comments.
But I really liked the "Thomas" comment as those are a "dime a dozen". Someone puts Vista on a machine that is not capable of running it properly and so they get problems like his, which was understandable if he didn't have enough video ram or system ram, or both !
You word your articles really well I must admit, because you don't actually say anything bad about Windows yourself...you let others do that for you !
And there are no end of Linux or Apple people chaffing at the bit waiting to say something about any windows system you care to name without exception.
But there is one undeniable fact that all of them (including you Joe) must admit ... take up rates of Windows products throughout the world (not just in America) are by far more than triple any other competitor microsoft has got !!
When you start with all the "facts" from Gartner you should actually quote proper figures not just the figures for the USA ...but the world wide ones. Which as you know are sometimes (depending on the product) greatly different to just your country alone.
Lastly I think that it will be funny early next year when Snow leopard comes out and all these new "improvements" will be in it, and some of them will be Apple versions of things in windows 7 and people will rave over them, but when windows 7 does come out those same people will be very angry and call MS copiers of "their" programs, it seems when you are "Microsoft" you can never win !

Ralph
In statistics there is a saying..."Figures don't lie, but liars can figure" now I'm not saying your a liar but...
The figures that were quoted in that article were just for the USA alone.
When will you guys learn that the USA is not the centre of the universe.
The article stated that " The extended Thanksgiving weekend contributed to Firefox’ market share gain"
There is only one country in the world that celebrates "Thanksgiving" AMERICA, these figures are only for the USA and not global ones at all, where they might be relevant for you guys thats fine, but you are talking about the usage overall, so these figures are wrong !
There is one other thing wrong, the "tgdaily" article is about "Browsers" not OS's.
Lastly the drop was from 71.27% to 69.77%

don't really have performance issues, because my pc is rated at 5.9. but it is a little slower than xp.

1. why did they have to move the user folders? a billion people already knew where these were. they catered to what they hoped would be new users and screwed the people who were already proficient with xp.

2. search sucks. used to be able to right click a shortcut to search the location it pointed to. why do i have to start search to bring up the advanced search window? xp was much better at finding all files, where vista finds a subset by default.

3. why, when i install new video drivers, does vista flash the screen and beep 20+ times while resetting my multimonitor configuration. maybe it's nvidia, but they're only using what Microsoft gave them to work with.

4. windows mail bugs that still exist in windows live mail. Outlook express was much better. Why store all of the emails and posts and contacts in separate files? They tout their database, sql, or whatever for speed, and then they move from oe’s db to a flat file system. Oe’s db was much faster than whatever vista uses. Mark all and catchup both take longer in vista than xp.

Why move address autocomplete to the registry and then only save 29 entries? Encrypted in the registry, no less.

I know there’re more and I doubt win7 will address any of these. It’s just stupid decisions like these that annoyed many existing users. That’s why most of vista sales are on new pc’s, not upgrades.

Neil :wrote

"Ralph
In statistics there is a saying..."Figures don't lie, but liars can figure" now I'm not saying your a liar but...
The figures that were quoted in that article were just for the USA alone.
There is one other thing wrong, the "tgdaily" article is about "Browsers" not OS's.
Lastly the drop was from 71.27% to 69.77%"
--------------------------------------------------
Microsoft Windows drops below 90%

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/12/01/mac-internet-share-hits-record-882-windows-drops-below-90/

Mac Internet share hits record 8.87%; Windows drops below 90%

netapp-os-pie-2Apple’s (AAPL) slice of the Internet pie grew measurably in November as both the Mac and the iPhone hit record numbers in a Net Applications Web survey issued overnight Monday and updated Monday morning.

At the same time, Microsoft’s (MSFT) Web presence crossed two psychological barriers, with Windows’ Internet share dropping below 90% for the first time and Internet Explorer’s market share retreating to less than 70%.

The Mac’s share of Web hits, having lost ground in October, grew 8.04% in November to a record 8.87%, according to the Web metrics firm’s preliminary corrected data. The iPhone’s gains were sharper: up 12.12% to 0.37%.

(Linux grew even faster, up nearly 16.9% for the month, following a 22% drop the month before.)

Windows’ share slipped nearly 10% to 89.62% as Vista’s gains failed to make up for sharp losses by Windows XP.

Internet Explorer’s shrinkage — down 2.1% to 69.78% – was largely due to gains by Mozilla’s Firefox, which topped 20% for the first time in November.

Windows 7 is just Vista sp2 that you have to buy if you want better Vista support.

Having just been requested by my girlfriend to make her computer (a nice Gateway laptop) act more like mine (an Acer w/XP & Mint Linux), I have to say that there's a lot more to this "Vista Sux" deal than most Vista users are willing to admit. I had never even used a Vista machine before and after giving it a thorough 3-hour test flight, all I could think was, "Wow. Crap". I'm pretty sure anyone who ended up paying for this glossy, plastic nightmare would be well within their rights to demand a refund from the carpetbaggers at MS.

And if Neil's point that better versions of MS products were usually build on the backs of less happy versions of their OS', it seems to me to be rather unfriendly and unhelpful to consistently drag users through the muck of working out the kinks while making a profit at their expense.

There are many free and elegant OS alternatives now and it would behoove consumers to use them until such a time as MS comes around to thinking less about what the shareholders want in the next fiscal quarter and more about what makes a company viable for a long time to come: repeat purchases due to customer satisfaction.

Ralph
Fistly apologies on the OS side of things, I went through one to many hyperlinks to the browser item.
But as far as the rest is concerned I stand by my statement.... the figures are for the USA ONLY !!
What about EUROPE, ASIA, etc. These figures are only for the US ONLY !!
Different countries have different figures !!
Just because their articles quotes USA figures, does that mean the rest of the world is the same ?????
If you are trying to say that well you are wrong !!
Microsoft doesn't just sell their products in the USA you know ! They are a worldwide company and sell WORLDWIDE !
So to quote figures that for the USA alone is not right.

Ralph
You still didn't say why you downloaded both Fedora and Ubtuntu ?? It doesn't make sense !
And even going on these "USA" figures of yours Linux is doing real well (not) at 0.83% That's not even ONE percent !
Oh that is huge isn't it !!
I wonder why it is so LOW when according to you they are so good ????

I used Vista when it first came out and if people are basing their ill-will towards Vista on that experience I wholeheartedly agree.

I had so many problems that I switched back to XP and it wasn't until I did so that I noticed and began to miss all of the little improvements made with Vista.

* Real or perceived, Vista felt more responsive to me.
* The problem of one explorer window causing the entire desktop to seize under XP doesn't happen on Vista.
* The ability to control volume per application? Vista only.
* Integrated search everywhere? Vista.

I'm back on Vista now and have been for quite a while now. SP1 improved things quite a bit and I while I wouldn't say I'm happy with Vista I am definitely not unhappy considering the alternative, but then again I have hardware that can actually run it.

Also, Vista mostly acts as my World of Warcraft player recently.

i cant go back to XP, Vista has too many improvements and no bugs for me :P
looks nicer aswell xD

Ubuntu just came in the post today :P

Neil : wrote

"You still didn't say why you downloaded both Fedora and Ubtuntu ?? It doesn't make sense !

And even going on these "USA" figures of yours Linux is doing real well (not) at 0.83% That's not even ONE percent !"
---------------------------------------------------

Well, Unlike Windows, we actually have a choice of what we can use, how we can use it and have the most up to date operating system available..unlike Vista.

Vista, for instance has been out for two years and another couple of years in development. If you want to call a five year old OS new and current and update...thats fine with me.

Ubuntu is released every six months, and Fedora 10 has been getting some very rave reviews lately. By the way I use Ubuntu, Knoppix, Open Suse, Linux Mint as well as Windows and even Mac OSX.

Why should anyone restrict their computer usage to one buggy and virus magnet like system is beyond me. Guess old habits are hard to break....?

Since some are new to the concept of people having choices in software, particularly in operating systems.

There are different desktops, different themes, different programs and different operating systems with Linux.

Some of the Linux operating systems can even run on the Mac Power PC platform, Sun Solaris machines and older PC's from the 486 all the way to latest high end top notch machines.

I know giving the consumer a choice on what they can use (and run) on their own computer is a foreign concept to those stuck in the "Windows machine" for years...but there is always hope.

See, no one is "stuck" with only one Linux operating system unlike the poor consumer who is stuck having to have Vista shoved on to them whether they like it or not when they buy a new computer.

And its not just Linux either, even though new converts to Linux are finding much needed relief from virus, trojans and malware threats without overpriced and system slowing anti-spyware. It is kind of refreshing knowing that you can actually enjoy the internet without having to be concerned if your anti-spyware is good enough whenever you go online.

Another recent phenomenon is formerly die hard Windows users trying out LIVE Linux CDs and running their computers off a Linux CD.

They do this to try out and see for themselves the benefits of using Linux before installing it on their system.

Too bad Windows users didn't have this feature..I wonder how many would would have stuck with Windows if people were able to try out a operating system before actually installing it.

The Live CD phenomenon has led to another, and that is dual booting. Having not one but two operating systems on one computer, one hard drive. The benefits of Linux with Windows on the same computer.

The Linux Figures

Actually those figures are wrong, Gartner put the Linux figure at 4 % and a Inquirer UK article puts Linux installs at 3.0 %.
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/01/linux-preloads-rocket-per-cent

And this is done without $300 million dollar advertising. Also netbooks are selling 50 % Linux and 50 % Windows according to some recent articles. So I guess that under 1 % really should be a "bit" higher, but if one feels using 1 %...really its OK...it won't change anything. After all, how can any software company compete with free?

As for the world wide figure, it must be world wide as IT sites and news sites from the UK, Australia, Canada and across the world are quoting those figures and none of them (except you) are saying that it is a "USA thing" only.

Lets say for the sake of argument... it IS a "USA thing" . However in other parts of the world several government entities have mandated open source. Brazil, The Philippines, South Africa are moving to open source to save them millions in license fees. Even the European Union has suggested moving to open source.

In Russia all schools in all regions must use open source unless the schools want to cough up the license fees themselves. So Microsoft's market share could be lower world wide...or it will be soon...once the mandates take hold across the globe.

Its kind of hard to fight government mandates, I doubt back room deals or special price breaks could not help keep those countries using closed end proprietary software.

I'd like to know myself what the market share of Windows in Brazil, China, Russia and Germany is. Especially Munich, since the city government went to all open source....

But if you want to pay $99 a month for detailed information on what country uses what operating system the most.

You may do so at marketshare's site...then you can report back to us your findings.

Ralph:
You're not suggesting that just because you use certain OS's everyone should are you, because it sure sounds like that.
Kudos to you that the use of multiple OS's floats your boat, but it's not very practical for the majority of us who have just one pc and simply want it to work.

Ben
Just imagine the HD space used to run all those OS's on one machine and what for ?? No real reason at all !!
Next a real mistake on Ralph's part "Actually those figures are wrong, Gartner put the Linux figure at 4 % and a Inquirer UK article puts Linux installs at 3.0 %."
First they are right and when I pointed out that his source said that Linux usage was only 0.8% now he finds another source that says they are at 3 or is 4%.
As for the "Inquirer" you have got to joking they are a totally discredited newspaper in the UK.
Now I said to start with that the figures he quoted were for the USA ONLY, now he goes for the UK figures.
Like I also said to start with "figures don't lie...but liars can figure"....which means if you are smart enough you can make anything from a bunch of figures, just like Ralph has done here !

@Neil, there are quite a few reasons to download Ubuntu and Fedora. The key difference being one is RedHat based using RPM as a package manager, the other is Debian based, using .deb packages. You could try out both methods.

Fedora is strictly open source while Ubuntu will package propietary drivers with it. For example NVIDIA.

Fedora is very similar to RedHat and a great OS to practice if you're interested in working with RedHat ES. As a lot of hosting services provide RedHat servers. Ubuntu is more desktop oriented and a bit more distant from RedHat. This equates to having both Vista and 2008 server or both XP Home/Business and a 2003 server.

Of course Linux manages user files and settings a lot better (by means of mount points and symbolic links). Sharing your $HOME directory between installs is a lot better with Linux than with Windows.

@Neil, regarding your space usage for multiple installs. Rest assured it is way less than with Windows. The usage of mount points and different partitions allows you to share a lot. For example /opt can be kept separate and applications installed there could be shared among installs.

Regarding the Linux penetration I'd like to quote the OpenOffice download site.

openoffice.bouncer.osuosl.org /logstats/20081201/

Yesterday OO 3.x was downloaded 11910 times for Linux and 236324 times for Windows. That's aprox 12000 to 240000 or 5%. We could argue that there could be a lot of geeks here skewing the stats in Linux favor. But also consider that a lot of Linux users don't need to download it as OO can be installed through the package manager. Thus leading to more "hidden" Linux users.

@Neil
Your post had me in stitches. A Vista user making a comment about PC resources?
-
Another of your classic's was "And there are no end of Linux or Apple people chaffing at the bit waiting to say something about any windows system you care to name without exception"
-
Firstly, I believe the term is "chomping at the bit" not "chaffing" (unless Im wrong) maybe your MS dictionary has picked up a bug? Try waiting for SP2, "Im sure it will be better next time." Or is there really such as thing as chaffing at the bit?
-
Dont you ever wonder why people promote Linux? Dont you think it is a little strange that so many people who are supporting Linux are coming here and making comments about how great it is? Why do people bother, its not like an MS shill who gets paid to do it. Why do we waste our time?
-
Ill tell you why Neil as the answer has obviously escaped you. We have an honest held belief that the Linux platform is better, we want others to try it and experience the same things we have.
Is that so bad?
-
Neil, Id suggest you stop drawing inference from someone having two Linux distro's when its obvious that you dont have much/any Linux experience. Id say all Linux users have considerable Windows experience as well and that puts us in a far better position to make comments about which platform is better.
As for MAC, well I bought the wife one, and whilst I would champion it here (shes very happy with it) I wont because I dont have enough experience with it to make fair judgement.
-
Right, next up, lets speak with Puppet. You said "i cant go back to XP, Vista has too many improvements and no bugs for me :P"
What improvements? and, if you are so happy with Vista, why on earth are you getting Ubuntu "through the post" Youre not a friend of Ron are you? Maybe you both work on the same software?
-
Happy Birthday Vista. Hopefully VISTA SP3.....I mean Windows 7, will carry on your legacy and both Mac and Linux will welcome more new users to their communities.

According to NetApplication's marketshare stats the party started last month, their stats are based on what people use when accessing the net

Windows in all its flavors fell just below 90%
XP has fallen to a tad over 66%
Vista cracked 20%
Mac in all its flavours has nearly 9%
Linux in all its flavours is below 1%

Install counts can be misleading. On my system I have 4 OS's (XP, Vista, Ubuntu & Fedora), six browsers (IE7, IE8, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Konqueror) and 2 office suites (Office 2007 and Open Office 3.0). 90% of the time I use XP, Firefox & Office 2007. I haven't used Fedora, IE7 or OOo in the last six months.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/

I don't understand what it is about the OS found on other peoples PC's that is getting you all so worked up.

Trying to making your preferred OS look good by bad-mouthing another is not a very effective way of attractive new users, especially when said users currently run the OS you're bad-mouthing.

Sorry to break it to you, but Vista is better than XP, at least for my use case. How is your preferred OS better for me than Vista? Why do either of us need to justify ourselves when we are both perfectly happy with what we have?

Just because your preferred OS fulfils whatever need you may have doesn't necessarily mean it will do the same for anyone else.

Windows must die! Linux - favorite!!!

DGOSH :wrote

"Windows must die! Linux - favorite!!!"
--------------------------------------------------

Actually , at the Ubuntu Forums, they have a Windows subsection where they help Windows users irregardless if they use Linux or not. There have a Mac section too.

Consequently the Vista Forums also has a Linux and Mac section. On the Vista Forums there is a healthy interest in dual booting with Windows and Linux.

According to the stats from

http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

(Click October 2008)

Linux has a 2.09 share

Operating Systems
1.......Windows XP.....73.80%
2.......Windows Vista..12.14%
3.......Mac OS X........5.33%
4.......Windows 2000....2.33%
5.......Linux...........2.09%
6.......Windows 2003....0.72%
7.......Windows 98......0.62%
8.......Windows ME......0.25%
9.......SymbianOS.......0.10%
10......WAP.............0.03%

Goblin: You wrote: "Firstly, I believe the term is "chomping at the bit" not "chaffing" (unless Im wrong) maybe your MS dictionary has picked up a bug? Try waiting for SP2, "Im sure it will be better next time." Or is there really such as thing as chaffing at the bit?"

While "chomping" is commonly (mis)used, the correct term is "champing at the bit." It's an equestrian term.
Your MS dictionary jab would have been more effective had you been right.

Ralph
I like your statistics but ... they are NOT a complete set of statistics as they leave out quite a few countries indeed.
I only need to name the main one left out ....China and there many others including my country Australia !
Philip has got a yet another set of stats showing (am I surprised, No I am not !) different stats to what Ralph has got.
The plot thickens, my dear watson.
Have fun with all of your stats :)
Now for the second rule of statistics ... There's lies, damn lies and statistics !
Remember the first now ... Figures don't lie, but liars can figure !
You lot are having WOW of a time trying to find statistics that back up your own personal view, and I tell you what ... you will find them !
If you or I are happy with our OS why should someone else come along and tell us what to do.
I am a trekkie and firmly believe in the non interference policy with other societies. Which basically means if someone comes from a different society they should not try to impress their beliefs onto other people.
In this case OS's, if your happy with yours and I am happy with mine don't try and convert me to yours.

Speaking of being a "Trekkie" I can't wait till windows 7 comes along with "Touch Screen" capabilities, put that together with speech recognition and pretty soon there won't be a situation like there is now.
No keyboard and no mouse eventually, it is coming, already they are talking about the end of the mouse.
Natural evolution will come to computers it is only a matter of time.

Speaking of being a "Trekkie" I can't wait till windows 7 comes along with "Touch Screen" capabilities, put that together with speech recognition and pretty soon there won't be a situation like there is now.
No keyboard and no mouse eventually, it is coming, already they are talking about the end of the mouse.
Natural evolution will come to computers it is only a matter of time.

Neil:
I'm intrigued by your vision of the future without mouses and no keyboards.
I'd be interested to hear how you envision an office or school setting with everyone talking and/or lifting their 10-lb arms all day.

@Neil, your no mouse no keyboard idea sounds like forced evolution rather than natural evolution. If in doubt consider the following scenario (you can even place it inside an airplane for added drama).

"Strafe left", "Strafe left", "Turn right", "less", "Turn right and strafe left", "Fire", "Fire","Reload and strafe right","Jump, turn left and fire"

We could also say goodbye to confidential letter writing anywhere except a closed cubicle. Who knows who could be sitting behind you on the plane.

These "totalistic" visions of the future of computers are so Bill Gates and so wrong it's appalling. Touch screen and voice recognition will complement not replace a keyboard and mouse.

I'm more inclined to see the keyboard become a touch screen than the screen become a major input device. With a "software keyboard" you can configure it to be anything. Have keypads appear, switch to a different set of "keys" for gaming, another for video and music editing (imagine knobs appearing to control "the tape"), etc etc etc. Meanwhile the screen while touchable remains mostly clear of your hands so it is usable for what it was designed for: to see things! Rather than see your hands in front of it.

I'd like to note though that there would still be an issue of feedback to the fingers. This would be lacking in a "software keyboard" and it is something evaluated in laptop reviews. It could come as a barrier for more "advanced" input devices.

Quote Chip Your MS dictionary jab would have been more effective had you been right.
-
Yep true, but then I was more correct than him, and I did say it was my belief, I didnt state it as fact. That wasnt the point of the post though, and if you take a light hearted flippant reply so seriously then maybe this forum isnt the place you should be.
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Quote Ben: I don't understand what it is about the OS found on other peoples PC's that is getting you all so worked up.
-
Im certainly not worked up, and I dont think anyone else is either (windows or linux users)
If you regard having a debate about OS's as something that evokes an emotional response, thats your business, at the end of the day, we are talking about software and if people shouldnt make comments about what they believe, whats the point of the comments system?
-
Quote Ben: Sorry to break it to you, but Vista is better than XP, at least for my use case. How is your preferred OS better for me than Vista? Why do either of us need to justify ourselves when we are both perfectly happy with what we have?
-
Thats great, thats your opinion. Why not join the debate and say why? why is it better than XP? and again Ill repeat, theres very little point in a comments section if people are not allowed to put their opinions over. I ask, when has a Linux user forced their opinion on you or anyone? The message of open source for me is try it, you may like it. I could care less if the market migrated towards it or not, Linux has been running quite fine over the years and since I get no reward out of anyone switching, whats the problem, with me or anyone championing the Linux platform?
-
If you feel so bad, why not champion the Vista platform?
-
Failing that, just dont read the comments if you find annoying.

I built a couple low-profile PC's I wanted to use as "TiVo's". I felt it would open a lot of options not available or not as easily setup with TiVo. I first experimented with Vista Ultimate and quickly found I could not watch my ripped DVD's. Oh, there is a workaround, but it was not smooth. I did more research and found that the DRM in Vista could cause me additional problems, so I switched to XP Media Center Edition 2005. After using it on trial for 30 days, I was satisfied and bought 2 OEM copies from Newegg. Vista just does not make a good Media Center because of the DRM restrictions. I understand MS is trying to thwart piracy in the media world, but these are my own personally purchased media. I do have to add that I do have some problems watching programs recorded on one MCE and played on the other. The programs are the ones that say copyright protected on the info page. How stupid! So they want me to sit in my living room to watch Judge Judy, but NOT in my bedroom. I suppose Vista would not only force me to watch in my living room, but won't let me fwd through the commercials either!

Misery for OEMs and retailers, too.

People like me, who used to recommend cheap, reasonably reliable "on sale" computers at the local big box stores-- are now commissioned by my customers to search the Ebay listings for 2-year-old XP computers with MS-Office 2003 pre-licensed.

Instead of buying an in-warranty, new Compaq or EMachines or whatever (and immediately buying a better PSU to protect the components), we buy less capable 2-year-olds for nearly the same price (after shipping). Everyone ion the OEM business loses a Sale: Microsoft, AND Compaq/Gateway/Toshiba/Acer, AND the big-box store.

Until next year, and "Windows 7", we just ain't buying.

Hi Neil.
--------------------------------
Ralph, Goblin and others new readers (not you Gerardo because you know)
How is Neil:
I wrote this almost 15 months ago;

Knowing Neil, the Shill: (facts)
1. 12 to 18 hours online per day. You need to be paid for this, if you need to work for a living.
2. Tries to discredit anyone who says anything bad about MS. Even more so if the blogger does it.
3. Creates personae who support him (they are detected because they present the same behavioral patterns, style of writing, misspellings and use of the same insults.)
Advantages:
To be paid for doing so.
High volume of messages in blogs (If not quality, quantity)
12 to 18 hours online, unlike normal people, who spend a lot less time doing so. So they can be insulted when they're absent.
Disadvantages:
Weakness of arguments-or a total lack of them. This tends to drive him to lie, offend or even insult, by the use of ad hominem (understandable, since it's hard to defend Ms)
Desperation and stress. This is a personal problem reflected on his behavior.
All of these translate in the loss of personal prestige.
Conclusion:
Any of these reasoning can be proven by going through Joe's blog's messages.
A last proof could be to write some other posts against MS, and a group (including Neil) will attack you, regardless of whether you quoted them or not.
--------------------------
I was hoping that Neil could has changed, I am not sure yet but it seems that he has not. Well I hope that his ‘resurrection ‘ could be bringing something to the dialogue here and not only one guy more in the shill’s rotation system of MS.

BTW, Chip is not chips. This type of cunning impersonation tends to confuse.

Apple now recommends using antivirous for OSX.
Congragulations Apple. Welcome to a larger market share. What happend to the ...immune to virouses claims of the past?...or maybe ...just maybe...what some of us were suggesting all along, about not holding a market share significant enough to attract virous, was RIGHT all along...

@Marco
Thanks for the heads up! I noticed in the past Chips has had his name abused so that adverse comments can be posted.
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Its a sorry state of affairs for people to sink to this level.
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Message to Neil: If youre a trekie and cant wait for Windows 7 and its touchscreen, you'll love this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r36TcG5XZDg
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The future of touchscreen.
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Moving on to sensible subjects, why is MS banging on like touch screen is so new? Its not and there are alternatives already out there. Secondly are MS saying that everyone should upgrade to Win 7? If so should we buy a new monitor aswell? What if, like me, your monitor is far away from your keyboard? Does Windows 7 come packaged with a pointy stick?
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Touchscreen, IMO a gimmick thats been done before, probably will have been done better and something that the average user will not use (as they wont have the facility) This is the selling point for Windows 7?

Quote Evan "that some of us were suggesting all along, about not holding a market share significant enough to attract virous, was RIGHT all along..."
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Er Evan, certainly in my case, you'll find I HAVE been saying that. The same will be for Linux as it increases in deployment. If you think that makes the exploits and victims of Windows vulnerabilities is acceptable then you are not a very good shiller, and in anycase from where I see it, Apple has taken the first oportunity to TELL people and be honest, instead of brushing it under the carpet.

Marco :wrote

"Hi Neil.
......... the Shill: "
----------------------------------------------------

Marco, thanks for the explanation....

Uh, 250 million systems, well past the original 200 million targets in 24 months set by Jim Allchin. Windows Vista is loved, its only those living in an IT bubble like you that are complaining Joe.

The biggest problem for Vista is that noone needs it. Windows has had a bad image for years but there is just no way around it. But there is an easy way around Vista: Just stick to XP for it still gots support and fixes and may give Windows 7 a shot. That's what it's all about. And that's also the reason why OS X and Linux won't gain much traction over the next few years. XP is just fine and when Microsoft halts support, people will switch to the successors because of compatibility.

@Chodo
Fair points there. XP is probably in a fair state by now and probably something that most of its users are very happy with (hence why no upgrade to Vista or wanting a downgrade back to XP) but you see this is no good for MS, who wont make any money from the person who wants to keep XP, and therein lies the problem.
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Wont mention Vista, as you obviously are avoiding it and are happy with XP.
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Moving onto Windows 7 though, you mention compatibility. Vista has had issues in that respect, and unless there is some major work put into 7 on that score, I would predict the compatibility (backward one) only to get worse. I dont believe its too far fetched to say that Wine is very close to offering better Windows backward compatibility than Vista, so dont hold your breath for a better Win 7 in that respect.
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I do challenge one of your points "And that's also the reason why OS X and Linux won't gain much traction over the next few years" - why do you say this? Its already happening, and some people who have reviewed Win 7 have been describing Win 7 as more of the same.
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The reason why I believe Windows is no longer as relevant for the home user, is because the PC is not as regarded as much of games machine as it was. People were/are fed up with constant upgrades to play the latest ones, not to mention the numerous patches/workarounds required to get them to work.
I believe the console has stepped in here, and now the majority of home PC users just require the surfing/office tasks of their home machine.
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That being said, I think for a Windows user, the advice of "stick with XP and see what Windows 7 is like" is probably a point well made. But what if Windows 7 is a let down? and Id expect a PC thats been running XP for 3+ years is not going to be up to spec to run Windows 7. So that type of user will be left with 3 choices. Splash out on a new PC, keep XP with an uncertain future or install Linux for free and give it a go.
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For your information I think many people who havent used Linux/Wine would be quite impressed at the amount of Windows software you can actually run through Linux, including the game thats generated alot of news recently: World of Warcraft.

chodo :wrote

"The biggest problem for Vista is that noone needs it. Windows has had a bad image for years but there is just no way around it. But there is an easy way around Vista: Just stick to XP for it still gots support and fixes and may give Windows 7 a shot. That's what it's all about. And that's also the reason why OS X and Linux won't gain much traction over the next few years."
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I agree pretty much with your comments on Vista and XP. I like XP too and I still use it even though I may come off as a total Linux shill (which I am not). (I do get free Linux software however...you can too!).

XP is the greatest OS ever released in my opinion. However it IS seven years old, while still very functional it is getting up in years.

Linux (namely Ubuntu) on the other hand has had fresh releases every six months. Innovative "out of the box" functionality is now available where once it was a pipe dream.

Add/Remove has replaced command line compiling. The online FREE support for Ubuntu is available to anyone 24 hours a day from users and volunteers from all over the globe from the Ubuntu forums.

In the past, wireless on Linux always was always possible, with the hardest part doing a simple cut and paste into a terminal to get wireless going. it took all of 3 minutes for this to happen.

The best news about wireless is the recent announcements from Broadcom and Atheros began to offer support to Linux users who desire to use their laptops wirelessly.

There are FREE and widely available "how to" Linux videos on You Tube and elsewhere. There are many FREE first rate podcasts for the new and advanced Linux users in the English language and many other languages.

If you have a XP computer, a typical Linux installation will run faster. If you have a Vista computer, Linux will scream on that computer.

Linux is not for everyone, it is for most everyone.

I disagree with the comment that OS X and Linux won't make any traction. OS X has doubled in usage since Vista was released. Why isn't Linux higher in usage? It doesn't have a advertising budget like Microsoft or Apple.

Linux has been king on the server market for years. Linux is now present in 469 of the supercomputer sites, 93.8% of the Top500 list
93 % is nothing to sneeze at. Maybe 'they" know something that the average computer user doesn't?

http://blogs.computerworld.com/the_worlds_fastest_computers_are_linux_computers

Linux will get more traction from the open source mandates spreading like wildfire across the globe. Linux notebooks are selling 50/50 with Windows XP according to recent reports.

For me personally, if people want to quote the 1 % Linux market share till the cows come home ...thats fine. Linux could be 3 or 4 % or higher. The problem is that Linux is free and there are no sales figures to get a accurate count like for Apple or Windows.

Linux isn't shutting down tomorrow if it doesn't meet company quotas or market share goals like closed source proprietary software requires. Linux isn't going anywhere but up in usage...daily. No amount of paid comments by astroturfers is going to change that.

Looking in Windows forums on the net, It is encouraging to see a growing interest in people trying out Ubuntu or some other fine Linux distributions with a Live CD/DVD or installing a Linux distro as a dual boot.

I know it is hard to believe that you actually have a choice what to run on your computer, and what you can do with "your" computer. But that innovative and taste of new found freedom is discovered by many...daily.

@Ralph
Spot on, and you said it more coherently than I could!
I think the biggest problem that Linux has is that people dont believe its free, and when they finally accept that, they dont believe that something free can be better than something you have to pay money for.
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Getting people out of the routine of paying for proprietary and seeing the open source alternatives is the hardest barrier. Once they've crossed that, they dont go back.
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I think that the benefits of open source/linux are the most obvious to the home user. With updates/optimisations and bug fixes that happen almost every day and the fact that downloading and installing them is virtually automatic and ususally doesnt even require a reboot, shows that the Linux platform is well supported, secure and most of all friendly.
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Since most distros will have you up and running in about 20 minutes install time, and the fact that you can even install to memory stick and boot from that, there is really no reason NOT to give it a try.
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I think the fact that Vista's birthday wasnt remembered by most and the fact the majority of people posting here are talking about alternatives, says alot about its reception. Andre can quote all the figures he likes, however just ask yourself this, how many people do you know use Vista? and what do they think of it?
Andre doesnt seem to think there is any problem with Vista, and thats fine. People have their own experiences of it regardless of what Andre of me says, thinking about that then, if Andre starts praising Windows 7, how much worth will you put in his comments?

I have been running Vista for 18 months now. Vista is fine. Runs fine for me. I just don't know how these people have these problems. 1-3 mintues, 10-15 times a day? Give me a break! Like you wouldn't re-load the pc? I've been XP do this a number of times over the years. I don't just sit and complain. I diagnose the problem and/or re-load the o/s. Problem solved.

It's so easy to bash Vista. Do you make money by bashing Vista in a stupid fashion like this?

@Bob
Why dont you want people putting their opinions across. As I have always maintained I have used both and find a Linux platform far better. Thats my opinion, you have yours. (I think you'll find though, there are more Pro-Linux posters here than Pro-MS ones, so I would suggest that many more people are happy on this site with Linux)
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Bob said "I diagnose the problem and/or re-load the o/s. Problem solved"
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Well I personally havent had to restart, reload my OS in.....I cant honestly remember the last time, and therein is the reason why Vista is bashed, for many people and their problems its something they have just got used to and accepted. It doesnt have to be like that.
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Im pleased you have had no problems with Vista, and I expect that youre not the only one. Maybe you will answer (nobody else has) what advantages over XP Vista gave you. I am interested to know, and many pro-ms commenters tend to go very quiet when that question is asked.
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The only one reply I had to that question was over on a gaming forum, and the only answer they could give was Halo. (although I was sure that could be run on XP)
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Quote Bob "It's so easy to bash Vista. Do you make money by bashing Vista in a stupid fashion like this?"
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Yep, youre spot on there. It is so easy to bash Vista, there are so many unhappy users on so many forums (and I know I have to struggle with Vista at work, so Im one of them) I dont make money bashing Vista, and if you think highlighting to people that they have a choice in terms of an OS is stupid then fine, thats your opinion.
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On a final note Bob, are you saying that anything I have said is false? Are you calling me a liar? If you are, then I will challenge that liable appropriately, if you are not, then you are agreeing with me and have defeated your own argument.
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Why not just ignore anything you find stupid? You'll feel better for it.

I don't know about others, i've first tried Vista when it came out and it was horrible, later on after SP1 released i've tried it again and till now I'm very happy with it, I like the UI, I like the feel of Vista, even the speed is not a issue (for me at least, my computers are for regular work, means Office,IE, music and digital media)
and I have basic computers, one P4 3.2 with 1GB ram and 6600GT and another one is Celeron with 2 GB ram, and GMA 950 GPU. I think the problem with Vista is the bad reputation and a noisy Mac and Linux community that throws mud in every talkback article that they can find.....

@Moshe.
Thats great youve enjoyed Vista, no problem there. Thanks for the honesty about you finding Vista "horrible" until after SP1 (I wonder if the same will be of Windows 7)
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I think your post highlights that people can make sensible remarks about Vista, and Im sure there are others like you.
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The only thing I challenge you on is when you say "I think the problem with Vista is the bad reputation and a noisy Mac and Linux community that throws mud in every talkback article that they can find....." have you been to any other forums? I think you will find the vast majority either dont want or have problems with Vista.
Are you suggesting that these users are all making it up, and that there are millions of users posting anti-vista comments just because they can?
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I love youre reference to "throw mud" and your post IMO opinion is almost trying to make a martyr out of Microsoft. Microsoft a martyr? Well thats a first, but if you want to portray the mighty MS as a vulnerable victim, thats fine by me.
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I will put to you what I put to another user, are you calling me a liar? are you suggesting I have posted anything untruthful about Vista and/or Microsoft. I have given my opinions and stated my facts (often with 3rd part links).
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I use MS products at work. I use Linux at home. I get no benefit from promoting Linux and infact you could argue that my livelyhood depends on MS products, so why am I not pro-MS? Could it be because after extensive use of both platforms I truly find Linux the better system?
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I dont sling mud, if I wanted to do that I could bring up many more Microsoft indiscretions over the last few years. I dont do that.
All open source users say the same thing, try linux/open source, you've got nothing to loose, you cant comment on the better system for you until you've tried it yourself. So why not give it a go?
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Lastly Ill end on your comment "or me at least, my computers are for regular work, means Office,IE, music and digital media"
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These are the "bread and butter" expectations of a Linux distro, difference being you wont be sold anything and it wont cost. All the features you mention above come as standard with most distros, so really your reason for specifically using Vista is a non-starter. If youre happy with it though, fine, best of luck to you. If you try Linux or look at Mac fine. If you dont, it really doesnt matter to me. At least you are aware of them.

@Moshe, based on your comment
"I think the problem with Vista is the bad reputation and a noisy Mac and Linux community that throws mud in every talkback article that they can find....." that implies a large amount of "mud throwing" against vista, we can conclude one of three things:

a) The Linux and Mac communities are extremely outspoken and prolific writers (in the order of 8 to 1 to the Windows community).
b) Linux has a 28% market share and Mac a 62% market share.
c) Long term Windows users have come to hate Vista.

I'd take C as the explanation for the large amount of anti-Vista post. What's your pick?

2 Years Later and still no support for IKEv2 (Internet Key Exchange (IKE)). Read what the DoD has to say about IPv6 support on different platforms jitc.fhu.disa.mil /apl/ipv6.html

BTW Windows 2008 Server doesn't support it either. Meanwhile both RedHat and Novell Linux support it. Please take note that Solaris and HP UX don't support IKEv2 either.

"IKEv2 is simpler to deploy, has clearer documentation, is
more efficient, has fewer options and fixes some of the shortcomings in IKEv1. IKEv2 is
integral to the RFC 4301 Architecture and some of its advanced features depend on
IKEv2 and are not available with the original IKE."

jitc.fhu.disa.mil/apl/ipv6 /pdf/disr_ipv6_product_profile_v3.pdf

Gerardo Tasistro :wrote
BTW Windows 2008 Server doesn't support it either. Meanwhile both RedHat and Novell Linux support it. Please take note that Solaris and HP UX don't support IKEv2 either.

Yes but Linux not so popular...

I'd have to agree with Gerardo Tasistro on why there is so much anti-vista posting.
The main reason I don't like Vista as a long time Windows user is the long time organisation of features and controls in Windows has been changed in Vista. However as is not uncommon after the first SP the dislike is somewhat lessened.

I used to be against Apple, but after really giving OSX a go, I've turned my opinion around. I'd sooner use OSX than Vista, but XP before OSX (I just use XP more).
Just give it a go if you haven't no matter the platform, you'll be surprised what you find.

@Xomyak, Linux not so popular in the server arena? Did you just thaw out of a glacier due to global warming?

I have never had problems with vista since the sp1 update, true vista has some quirks in it(windows defender, IE) wich can be resolved by a few settings easly found, and the issue of some drivers not being available for some older hardware. But vista's true acomplishment was it's push for better hardware, software and the overall idea of how a user interacts with his computer.
After the climax of the intel cpu's running at 3.2ghz(3.4 extreme edition i think, not sure), and a main part of the computing world still at 32 bit it was time for someone to take it to the next level, and all i can say, it was Vista who did it, not Ubuntu, nor mac, nor anything else, cuz let's face it, all fanboys aside, the most used OS around is microsoft, and competition against this giant is great too and helps the ones that need it, the end users. Most of the problems i see getting blamed on vista are mostly hardware, or third party software related, im no big shot IT tech, nor will i claim to be, im a hardware runt, fixing computers every day, from home pc's, to servers, to client pc's at ofices in a myrad of situations, and let me tell ya, all this fuss about how vista sucks, comparing it to ME is just by far the most idiotic and dumb thing i have ever heard, there is no comparison, which proves how little or too much they know, that's the bad thing about having too many years in the biz, you get acostumed to the old way of doing things, im sure some ppl out there prefer to have a command line ever present, or have the low requirements of xp in comparison to todays trends, the thing is simply, times are changing, get used to it, if it bugs you that a start button is now a globe, then you need to go back to school or something, things never stay the same.
p.s
2 things:
60 percent of computers clients bring me with Windows vista are easily fixed by disabling windows defender, and by removing Norton, panda, or mcafee... you tell me if you don't see a pattern.. the other part was mostly low end hardware, faulty hardware, or the ocacional spyware/trojan/virus palooza in their outdated antivirus software hehe

I remember when XP was about to launch, talking to my old teacher, she looked at me with a distrustful face, saying she was sticking with windows 2000... he he, I always find that moment very funny windows xp was a great os, and still is, but vista is it, i wouldn't go back to XP ever!

It may be that Vista is a better operating system than XP in some respects, but those improvements are eclipsed by fundamental problems. It is slower on a 3G computer than XP. Also, Microsoft has decided to take a lot of decisions out of my hands with its content management restrictions, security protocols and forced acceptance of service packs - I, not the computer, should be in charge of these activities. Net-net, Microsoft attempted to shove a new operating system down our throats which provided little added benefit for the average user but huge benefit to MS through new OS sales and the ability to sell media through its restrictive content management system.

Re: Gerardo Tasistro
Am afraid this you were there frozen!

Re: Gerardo Tasistro
Am afraid this you were there frozen!

Re: Gerardo Tasistro
Am afraid this you were there frozen!