lol and they criticize Linux for being too diverse...lmao

They're just jealous because Linux users get all the premium features for free. ;)

"You'll burn away all the early goodwill among bloggers and reviewers if heavily touted features aren't available in all Windows 7 versions. You can't promise something and then take it away later."

End users aren't Microsoft's customer Joe, OEMs are the customer. OEM's will never pay a single price for W7 licenses. Some will pay 99 cents a throw (Asian governments), while others will have to shoulder the full burden (retail customers). Ballmer and Co. need this morass of confusing price points and feature lists to keep everyone guessing.

I don't mind the different versions really. As long as it's clear from the start what you do and what you don't get per version.
Starter - A crippled OS at a low price point
Home basic - the basic OS. No eye candy, half the features
Home premium - Good for home use, some eye candy, half assed networking options
Business - No eye candy, proper networking
Enterprise - Same as business with some advanced features
Ultimate - Everything we made tossed up into one little bundle.

It's as simple as that. That's like saying Ford should only make 1 type of car. Different needs need different versions. Just don't hide the fact the cheaper options include less.

Its nice to see in even these times, people can have this type of faith in fairness (IMO):
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http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=784&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
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"A good clean fight" - Mark Shuttleworth.
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I hope so, I really do. Who here though has the same faith after seeing recent activities on the Microsoft Watch site?

Lest we not forget the "Linux kicked to the curb article" which has some interesting links to the past, as documented here:
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http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5784396972.html?kc=rss

and I wonder which version of Windows 7 will be bundled with Firefox?
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http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/245994/eu-could-force-microsoft-to-bundle-firefox-with-windows.html
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I hope three posts and three links doesnt make me a spammer. I believe Joe said this site doesnt allow you to post more than one link in one post.

If they made only 1 version of 7 then how much would they charge for it? We have the price points $30, $60 and $120, if they charge $30 then they will make massive losses, if they charge $120 then they will lose a massive chunk to the competition. If they charge $60 then they will get a bit of both.

So, Joe if you were in charge, how much would you charge for this all-in-one version? Remember the wrong decision here would likely kill Microsoft.

why does Microsoft get blamed for harming competition? ITS THEIR OWN OPERATING SYSTEM they should be able to put whatever the hell they want on it. its their product, u choose to buy it, other companies are trying to make profit off Microsoft by building software for their Operating System.
can someone please add me on WLM and explain it to me lol

puppet: You should look up anti-trust law, monopolies have special laws that only apply to them. Microsoft broke those laws.

Yes, Apple and Google could be defined to have very large shares of their respective markets, but there is competition in those markets and they are not abusing any power that they may have. I have yet to see anyone put a case forward for how either could influence the market at all, let alone how they are abusing it.

Joe, I think you are very mistaken about Windows SKU's. Not everybody thinks or works the same way or plays the same way. Windows Vista is about the user experience, not the form factor. There are only 4 Windows Vista retail SKUs:
Home Basic, Home Premium, Business and Ultimate.

- For a person who does not use Media Center, does not need HD Movie Maker, Home Basic will do that user just fine.

- Home Premium targets setups that utilize Media Center extenders, integration with XBOX 360.

- Business, need functionality like Domain Join (which most consumers do not need), Encryption, Group Policy Editor and Remote Desktop, this is the SKU you need for small business and mid market in addition to mobile users with that need.

- Ultimate - no compromise, gives you everything from Home Premium and Vista Enterprise. Its really for Power users who often own Tablet PC/Laptop as their main system and want everything and are modal in their worlds of work and play.

Enterprise and Starter edition are not available in Retail channels. You have to own a volume licensing agreement to get Enterprise, while Starter is available only on new systems in developing markets.

32 and 64 bit are not SKU's, they are platform architectures. If you have a system with 4 GBs of memory or more, you can utilize it by installing the 64 bit platform for the SKU you bought. Windows Vista Ultimate 32 bit and all other 32-bit SKUs can only access 3.3 GBs of memory. Microsoft only provides retail SKUs with the 32 bit media with the exception of Ultimate (upgrade and FPP).

"OEMs standardized on Windows Vista Home Premium."

And they have standardized on the 64-bit version, for all but very low end machines.

The end result is that, in spite of multiple versions, there is no real consumer confusion.

Another possibility would be to market the basic Windows 7 operating system to consumers, then let people buy Plus Packs later on if they decide they want some of those fancier features.

The basic OS from MS should at the most not cost more than $30. Basic functionality should have a basic price.

On the other hand:
The basic version should really be an 'express' version that should be offered freely similar to what MS has done for their development suites.

@Andre De Costa:

Er...so I go and shell out a $100 or so for Vista Home...then get an XBox, and have to shell out for another copy of the OS because the version I have isn't compatible with my new console? This isn't about "user experience" at all...this is about raping the consumer to the point they don't know their asses from holes in the ground.

It makes sense to me.

First, you have to divide the Business users from consumers.

There are two classes of business users: those that buy it off the shelf or buy 50 copies at once. They get Windows 7 Business. These are usually smaller companies that don't need all the Active Directory support or Gold/Premium support.

Then there are the large businesses that have a support contract in place with Microsoft. These guys get Windows 7 Enterprise. They can download the OS directly from Microsoft. They get all the tools to easily centrally deploy and manage the OS. It comes with built-in security tools, AD support, and all the corporate bells and whistles. It might not come with any of the non-business/consumer stuff (such as games).

Now for consumers...

You have to have a cheap low-end product for those that can't afford $300 for the full blown version. This would be Windows 7 BASIC #I prefer "Home" as a brand, but MS seems to like BASIC#. This version would miss the bells and whistles #no Bitlocker, NTFS , or Aero support etc#, but would support any 32-bit windows apps and drivers.

The top Tier would be Windows Ultimate #actually "premium" or "extreme" might work better as brands# which would include all bells and whistles.

So that would be four versions, but Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate would also offer 64-bit versions, so that ups it to 7 versions.

So I guess we could call this "7 of 7". I was shooting for "7 of 9" but we'll have to wait for a couple more iteration of Windows for that.

Hi Andre!
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Feel like answering the question yet? Theres an open letter to you on my site aswell, but incase IE is playing up, he is the question again (14 times now)
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On your blog, you claim not to be attending the PDC 2008(I have a screen dump of that page if you need help finding it) Now on this site:
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http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/152854.asp
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It implies you were there, and you received a review laptop. Since you've always said you are not a Microsoft Shill, Im sure you are keen to clear this matter up.
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I look forward to your response.

It makes sense to me.

First, you have to divide the Business users from consumers.

There are two classes of business users: those that buy it off the shelf or buy 50 copies at once. They get Windows 7 Business. These are usually smaller companies that don't need all the Active Directory support or Gold/Premium support.

Then there are the large businesses that have a support contract in place with Microsoft. These guys get Windows 7 Enterprise. They can download the OS directly from Microsoft. They get all the tools to easily centrally deploy and manage the OS. It comes with built-in security tools, AD support, and all the corporate bells and whistles. It might not come with any of the non-business/consumer stuff (such as games).

Now for consumers...

You have to have a cheap low-end product for those that can't afford $300 for the full blown version. This would be Windows 7 BASIC (I prefer "Home" as a brand, but MS seems to like BASIC). This version would miss the bells and whistles (no Bitlocker, NTFS , or Aero support etc#, but would support any 32-bit windows apps and drivers.

The top Tier would be Windows Ultimate (actually "premium" or "extreme" might work better as brands) which would include all bells and whistles.

So that would be four versions, but Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate would also offer 64-bit versions, so that ups it to 7 versions.

So I guess we could call this "7 of 7". I was shooting for "7 of 9" but we'll have to wait for a couple more iteration of Windows for that.

6 versions... Don't for get the EU and all the N versions too. That makes it 12 versions.

I think a lot of people have the argument backwards as to which is the better version of Windows. People seem to argue that everyone should get the ultimate version and scrap all the rest. I find the lower the version, the less bloated it is and the better it runs. If the lowest version is set to run ok on a netbook, then it should run really well on a good notebook or desktop, unlike the higher versions that bloat out and slow everything down.
I'm really looking for the lowest edition, the one that installs the least. I don't really care about the operating system, I run programs. I want maximum resources for the programs I run, not operating system things. And then as a bonus the version I want costs the least! Excellent.
For the extra features in ultimate, all of these are available through open source programs. All versions can connect to the internet and do TCP/IP. Hence you just need open source programs to do what you want via open internet protocols and you don't need the business edition, etc. Though obviously IT departments insist on the ability to control users with AD and such, but if they are willing to pay for that, fine.

Microsoft already gets thrashed for "bundling" software into their OS. They get thrashed for Windows not being as "cohesive" as Apples OSX.

How do you create a cohesive, complete operating system without being fined by the EU for monopolizing your position in the industry?

As I see it, these editions are the Microsoft attempt to give customers choice (and keep from being fined)...not an effort to cause confusion or suck more money from the public.

@user,
Microsoft gets thrashed by the EU for their business practices. The fines and unbundling are the EU's attempt (not really so effective) to rectify the situation.

Microsoft doesn't get thrashed for Windows not being cohesive. They get endless complaints, to be sure. But that's not being thrashed. That's just minor background white noise.

Microsoft is (rightly) afraid of the real thrashing they face with the next phase of personal technology. Apparently, they designed Vista on the premise that hardware capabilities would continue to follow Moore's law, hardware prices would continue to fall, and the economic house of cards (started back in the 1980s) would continue to grow unabated. They goofed big time, as did many companies.

Bill Gates brilliantly predicted that the IBM PC had the strong potential to offer low cost hardware to the masses, and to realize that low cost hardware would drive high-margin software. Because the PC was low-cost, the demand for the companion software would also rise and it could be high-cost, or at least high-margin.

Linux isn't popularized by IBM, RedHat, and others because it's free. It's popularized because it makes the operating system a low-cost commodity. With both the hardware and the software as low-cost commodities, the demand for companion middleware, applications, and support are increased and they can be high-margin also.

Bill Gates' business practices have been called into question, and rightly so in many cases. But all that aside (if it's possible!), he brilliantly rode the wave of high-margin PC operating systems and applications whose high demand was driven by the low-cost companion PC hardware. He skillfully adjusted to the nuances of that wave and rode it better and longer than anyone else could have.

But now that wave has largely played out. Not only is the PC hardware a low-cost commodity, but Linux is driving the software and middleware to also be a low-cost commodity. And the current economic climate appreciates the further cost reductions in the PC platform because it increases demand for that platform and therefore increases the demand for the companion high-margin portions such as custom applications and services.

It doesn't matter how many versions Windows 7 offers, nor who actually decides which one is best for which user or OEM. The wave isn't over but it's largely played out. There's more money to be made, but the wild ride is over.

What I'd like to see MS do is drop the 32/64 bit differences. Combine them both as they've done andhave the installer check to see if the CPU has x86_64 extensions. If not, then install the 32bit version. The other thing is only offer 3 versions to us (Home/Pro/Ultimate).

The advantage that Vista was supposed to offer was the mandantory 64bit driver support. It's time for MS to put their foot down and start pushing for that support in order to get the Designed for Win7 label/logo that everyone wants. The other advatage is it will drive the 64bit driver support much faster then what Vista did (of course we already have some 64bit driver support due to Vista).

This is an "age-old" practice for consumer software. Whenver a basic sku and premium sku are sold in the same location, the sales of the premium sku are higher than when the premium sku is offered as the sole option.

Second, offer an upgrade option from the basic sku to the premium sku at a "discounted" rate online. The company makes more profit on the upgrade than they do in retail because the overhead of retail is not a factor.

Seriously, its not just a software thing. It happens with many consumer products. Go look at vacuums at home depot. Another great thing about extra skus is that you can stuff the retail channel in a pinch since every retail has to have "one of each".

I know all this from having worked in consumer software on the "shovel-ware" side of the house. No one from Microsoft is ever going to say "We make more sku's because it generates more income" but rest assured they wouldn't do it if it didn't make a profit.

Consider the installation procedure with any major Linux distro: in the installer, you get to choose which features you want, right down to individual packages. Wnat all the bells and whistles? Here they are. Don't want the bloat? Don't select it. Change your mind later? Just run the package manager again at any time, and add or remove stuff as you please.

Imagine a similarly modular Windows install, with all these checkboxes for individual features. But, every time you check a box, the cash register goes ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching. Only pay for the stuff you need, right? Except that customers would be up in arms if Microsoft ever tried to pull such a stunt.

That's why there can never be a truly modular Windows. The closest Microsoft can come without completely pissing off their customers is all these multiple SKUs. They're not going to go away: deal with it.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro :wrote

"Imagine a similarly modular Windows install, with all these checkboxes for individual features. But, every time you check a box, the cash register goes ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching. Only pay for the stuff you need, right? Except that customers would be up in arms if Microsoft ever tried to pull such a stunt."
----------------------------------------------------
It is already a reality, not with Microsoft. But with a certain popular burning software program.

After a short trial period. If you want to make DVD's you can't convert your favorite videos into DVDs unless you pay for the higher grade version.

Nearly anyone with a casual interest in video, wants to convert and burn to DVDs. And while sure you can burn DVD ISO's , that is about it....unless you get the more expensive version. And as it is, that certain software program came with a fairly expensive computer.

Thank Goodness for free software programs like Devede that can do what that other popular software burning program can't.

Yea I could see where MSFT could get criticized for that.

Microsoft should dump all those stupid Vista SKU's, which are clearly part of the Vista "problem" (which version has which features?), and go back to two editions: Home and Pro. Simple, clean, easy to explain, much easier to market.

Casual home user? You want the Home edition.

Business environment, developer, high-end hardware, etc? You'll want the Pro edition.

You can argue that more editions allows MS to make more money in the long term, but that didn't work at all with Vista, did it?

Interesting article over at:
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http://www.osnews.com/story/20862/Don_t_Blame_Windows_and_KDE_for_Your_Own_Aversion_to_Change
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Does anyone find it strange that KDE should be thrown into a discussion about alternatives viewpoint? One could be forgiven for thinking that someone was trying to divert suspicion that this was actually a post about Windows 7 and why you should ignore anyone who offers an alternative. Maybe thats just my opinion.

The author appears to believe that supporters of alternatives have a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude.
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He's doing something right though. Andre Da Costa seems to have given him his seal of approval!
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Oh and breaking news: The "buy Nike trainers" spam has finally been removed from Andre's site. How long did it take?
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Mind you even though Andre has found time to celebrate the opinion of someone he can agree with, he still hasnt found time to answer the question Ive been asking him. Dont worry, I wont repeat it again until he returns with another post.
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I am though pleased that Andre is ok. His impromptu disappearance from MSwatch was cause for concern.

Many people know of the myth that "Linux is difficult to learn and install packages on"
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It is of interest then (I believe) that some reporters are writing about how Windows should have a similar package manager to Linux. I thought people said Linux was more complicated than Windows to install software on???
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http://www.osnews.com/story/20648/Does_Windows_Need_a_Linux_Package_Manager_
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Another Linux myth put to bed.

and the interest in Windows 7 continues to grow as in the UK the Conservative party is looking into Open Source:
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Quote from the link "George Osborne has welcomed recommendations from Dr Mark Thompson on how to deliver better value for money in IT procurement and create a level playing-field for open source software."
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http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=1791&blogid=14
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Quote from link "The Government could save at least £600 million per year if it adopted a more effective open IT procurement process. The open source savings would come not just from reduced licensing costs, but importantly by freeing government bodies from long-term, monopoly supply situations. "

Now without all these SKU's, how can M$ extract the maximum amount of money, from all of you?

@Goblin:

Interested comment by you, and link. As someone who uses KDE as a window manager, for the distro's that I use, still I cannot comment on KDE 4x, at this time. The fact that most distro's have not embraced it yet, and still cling to KDE 3x makes me think that its not feature complete as of yet. Since KDE 4.2 just came out, this could have changed.

I have to admit, in user interfaces, I am not a big proponent in change, unless there is some clear benefit to it. The changes in Vista UI, over XP, were not what I seen as useful. In fact, to me they appeared as change for the sake of change only.

Goblin, if you ever get an real truthful answer from M$ Shillmeister Andre, that will be interesting.

Goblin says: "Does anyone find it strange that KDE should be thrown into a discussion about alternatives viewpoint?"
--------------------------------------------------
Not really, this is one of the ways that Microsoft's apologetics use to say, "see someone else is doing it, why should not MS do it too?" It the old story of "two wrongs make a right" argument. Just another form of M$ propaganda.

HI Chips!

It is my opinion that the article on "do as I say not as I do" used KDE as a cover for the real message it was trying to send out which I believe was:
"If you hear anyone mention an alternative to Windows, ignore them, they probably dont use it anyway" - Thats how I interpretted that particular article. Its certainly got Andre excited which adds to my suspicion, as IMO anything with an Andre endorsement has a distinct Microsoft taste to it.
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Thats why I thought it relevant to link. I am interested in others views on it.
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@Everyone:
Heres a link to a site commenting (and linking to) exhibits of the Comes V Microsoft case.
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http://thebeezspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/01/microsoft-debunks-linux-myths.html
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and then consider those exhibits next time you read a Linux myth.

I was not at PDC. I was sent the pre-beta code to review though.

Thanks Andre, it wasnt much to ask, was it?
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Would you like the site in question challenged? The wording of the site IMO is very misleading and tends to suggest you were. That is unfair.
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Would you mind though just finishing the answer with responding to the question of if you have recieved a "review" or "free" (or whatever it wants to be called) laptop?
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As you can appreciate Andre, I would like to confirm that the post is actually you (since even Joe Wilcox has been impersonated here), so Id kindly ask if you would drop me an email with the answer to the PDC and laptop question. I will then be more than happy to print your reply both here and on my site. That way the matter can be finished with and your readers can be sure of the true version of events.
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I thank you for your time.

@Goblin:
LOL, I think the laptop in question (with pictures) with the provided link was from the time of early release of Vista, not PDC2008. PDC2008 would be another laptop if so. The HP giveaway, was for a very nice HP (HP & MS) desktop computer system valued at over $6000, and although that was roughly the same time and near location as PDC2008.

Hi Chips
-
Agreed. So since the first part of the question is answered. I think a little disclosure from Andre in regards to gifts/review copies would not go amiss.
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Andre please send it via email (from your activewin) so I can be sure its really you.

Six Sevens equals 42. Coincidence?

Goblin, I test Windows 7 on my own personal computers, no reviewers units here.

Again Andre, thanks for the response. Its not answering the question though is it?. I wasnt asking what you happen to be testing on your machines. I will make the question as simple as possible, it requires a yes or no answer and will end this matter, in regards to your PDC response I will update the article on my site according to your answer.
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Here is the last part of the question:
Have you ever recieved a review,free,gift or whatever of Hardware (as in laptop, desktop,other hardware) from Microsoft or its affiliated partners?
-
Thanks for your time, and if youd like to explain the photos of you that chips has linked to, it would be appreciated.

Again Andre, thanks for the response. Its not answering the question though is it?. I wasnt asking what you happen to be testing on your machines. I will make the question as simple as possible, it requires a yes or no answer and will end this matter, in regards to your PDC response I will update the article on my site according to your answer.
-
Here is the last part of the question:
Have you ever recieved a review,free,gift or whatever of Hardware (as in laptop, desktop,other hardware) from Microsoft or its affiliated partners?
-
Thanks for your time, and if youd like to explain the photos of you that chips has linked to, it would be appreciated.

Ahhh.
Ive become like Draoi. A double post......
Sorry folks!

Goblin why don't you propose to swap telephone numbers with Andre. It's getting irritating to read you (two) discuss stuff that's totally off topic.

Quote "Goblin why don't you propose to swap telephone numbers with Andre. It's getting irritating to read you (two) discuss stuff that's totally off topic."
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Thanks for that Charlie. Since its not your site, and the impartiality of a regular poster is important (IMO) then Ill continue posting as I always have, until Joe says otherwise.
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In addition, unless Im wrong. Its only been me asking. Andre has only answered twice with 1 line responses. In this case I think it unfair you would consider Andre irritating.
-
If you would like to discuss the subject of irritating (which I consider off topic, not Andres impartiality) then maybe me and you could swap telephone numbers, and discuss what subjects are considered off topic and what is not. Contact me through my site and Ill be more than happy to oblige.
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In the time it took you to type your comment, Andre could have answered YES or NO and the matter would be layed to rest. Im presume then, you dont find Chips's link of Andre with a laptop (picture) irritating? Ok. Your opinion.
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I hope you dont find the below link off topic or irritating. Ive posted it before, but I think its very relevant for the Microsoft Watch site:
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http://thebeezspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/01/microsoft-debunks-linux-myths.html

Microsoft's at it again. Their whole bloated marketing approach is part and parcel of their whole bloated software design zeitgeist.

You can't even click on their help screens (any product) without going absolutely to sleep.

Do not pass go, do not collect $200 dollars - Microsoft's nonsense over the past 25 years just puts me right to freakin' catatonic sleep.

Now that Google Chrome, Gmail, Docs is up and running - I've thrown out every MS product in the house.

I'm ripe ripe ripe for simplicity - and these products allow me to forget that I'm still running
Windows. The last vestige of this silly Redmond nonsense.

Rob

It's going to be tough for M.S. to keep the number of versions of Windows 7 down. The whole 32/64 bit thing doubles it right off the get-go. How about XP? How many versions, total, of XP are there? More than Vista, and more than there will be with Windows 7 I am sure. M.S. is going to need some type of Home version, a Business version and some type of Ultimate version. Multiply by 2 for the 32/64 bit versions and then the European versions. It will be hard to keep that number down.