A key point you don't mention is that most of those Zune 30s shipped to retailers LAST holiday season & have been sitting on the shelves for a year, they've been dead SKUs for a while. They are not so much being discounted to compete against iPod as to clear the channel of dead product. My guess is that it's not only Microsoft that's eating the cost of the discounts, it's the retailers, and I doubt any of them cares which player has what market share as long as they can sell products at a profit. Does this situation bode well for the long-term health of Zune?

Doris Garant wrote: "Most of those Zune 30s shipped to retailers LAST holiday season & have been sitting on the shelves for a year, they've been dead SKUs for a while."

Are they really dead, Doris?

Firmware upgrade makes them functionally the same as newer models. Only the design is different. If there was no firmware upgrade, I would absolutely agree.

Joe

Most of those parents thought they were buying an iPod. They don't know the difference and the sales staff is not inclined to enlighten them. A lot of kids who got Zunes will be disappointed they didn't get the real thing.

As for "it's pretty kick ass; it blows ipod right out of the water", are you serious, or just delirious?

Your daughter will love the Zune, though. Just get it in pink to match her laptop. Can't wait to see what column she writes for you next.

Its amazing the MS hate. So people don't know the difference between an box that clearly says ipod or zune? As far as it blowing the ipod out the water I dont' agree with that completly but isn't that all subjective. The fact that the zune has a FM tuner, wireless sync and customizable background might be feartues that some see as a major differential. Just as some might see the touch interface in the ipod touch as a major differential.
Honestly before the ipod touch there was no major feature the seperated ipods from scandisk,creative,etc mp3 players. Apple was simply the first to tie in the music store to the player. They could of released the apple "izune" and it would of done the same in sales which all the apple fanboys would now be claiming how great it was.

We have a total of three Zunes now. The kids love them and the Zune 8 in pink was definately a must have for our teen girls this season.

Surprisingly, long time iPod owners have been moving to the Zune. They like the 2-Zune, all you can eat flat free access to the Zune Marketplace and the lower costs, but the biggest hit and most surprising one has been the online Zune social. People have found new music and it is cheap and easy for them to check out. They see what their friends are in to and they access it for no more money than they are paying. The results are people accessing a wider variety of music. We have a lot of customers that are now ordering Zune's for themselves - replacing iPods and moving away from iTunes. At first there was an anything but another iPod driver, but later the social itself has been attracting people to the Zune. Customers and our own kids have told us that they like how the social opens doors to new music, which then costs them no more to go get.

Being able to drag and drop DVR-MS recorded TV shows over to the Zune is also popular and definatley a lot cheaper than buying TV shows on iTunes. Syncing the same wirelessly is pretty cool, too, but a bit slow for large TV shows. Over all, the Zune offers a great deal and people have warmed to it.

Microsoft induced partners to infringe on Vcsy patents! They'll have to settle!

The entire document from VCSY: IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
MARSHALL DIVISION
Vertical Computer Systems, Inc., ?
?
Plaintiff, ?
? Civil Action No. 2:07-cv-144
v. ?
? JURY TRIAL DEMANDED
Microsoft Corporation, ?
?
Defendant. ?
ORIGINAL COMPLAINT
Plaintiff Vertical Computer Systems, Inc. ("Vertical") brings this action against Defendant Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") alleging as follows:
I. PARTIES
1. Plaintiff Vertical is a Delaware corporation with a principal place of business in Fort Worth, Texas.
2. Defendant Microsoft is a Washington corporation and has its principal place of business at One Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington. Microsoft is doing business in this judicial district and may be served with process through its Registered Agent, Corporation Service Company located at 701 Brazos Street, Suite 1050, Austin, Texas 78701.

II. JURSIDICTION AND VENUE
3. Vertical's patent infringement action arises under the patent laws of the United States, including 35 U.S.C. ?? 271 and 281. This Court has exclusive subject matter jurisdiction over this civil action under 28 U.S.C. ? 1338(a).
4. Microsoft has minimum contacts with the Marshall Division of the Eastern District of Texas such that this venue is a fair and reasonable one. Microsoft has been sued and

defended numerous lawsuits in this judicial district and has also committed such purposeful acts and/or transactions in Texas that it reasonably knew and expected would result in it being brought into a Texas court as a consequence of its business activities. Microsoft has transacted, and at the time of the filing of this Complaint is transacting, business within the Marshall Division of the Eastern District of Texas. For these reasons, venue is proper in this Court under 28 U.S.C. ?? 1391(b) and (c) and 28 U.S.C. ? 1400(b).

III. PATENT INFRINGEMENT
5. On November 30, 2004, United States Patent No. 6,826,744 (the ??744 patent?) was duly and legally issued for a ?System and Method for Generating Web Sites in an Arbitrary Object Framework.? A true and correct copy of the ?744 patent is attached hereto as Exhibit ?A? and made a part hereof.
6. Vertical is the owner of the ?744 patent and has standing to sue for infringement.
7. Microsoft manufacturers, has made, uses, sells and/or offers for sale software such as the Microsoft.Net development platform that, when used, is covered by at least claims 1-5, 9, 11, 17-19, 21, 23, 25-29, 33, 39-41, 43, 45, 47, and 48 of the ?744 patent.(SORRY, had to highlight this one because it will drive msft to the settlement table and not prolong the case against itself and partners and clients MSFT has INDUCED TO INFRINGE) Microsoft has also induced others to infringe and/or has contributorily infringed those claims of the ?744 patent.
8. Vertical has placed the required statutory notice on all software products sold by it under the '744 patent.
9. Further, Vertical has given written notice to Microsoft of the ?744 patent by letter dated February 7, 2007 and, since that time, Microsoft has been willfully infringing the '744 patent.

10. Vertical has been damaged as a result of Microsoft?s willfully infringing conduct and Microsoft is, thus, liable to Vertical in an amount that adequately compensates Vertical for Microsoft?s infringement, which, by law, cannot be less that a reasonable royalty.

11. Microsoft will continue its infringement of the ?744 patent unless enjoined by the Court. Microsoft?s infringing conduct causes Vertical irreparable harm and will continue to cause such harm without the issuance of an injunction.

IV. JURY DEMAND
12. Vertical hereby requests a trial by jury pursuant to Rule 38 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

V. PRAYER FOR RELIEF
Vertical respectfully requests that the Court find in its favor and against Microsoft and that the Court grant Vertical the following relief:
a. Judgment that one or more claims of United States Patent No. 6,826,744 have been infringed, either literally and/or under the doctrine of equivalents, by Microsoft and/or by others to whose infringement Microsoft has contributed and/or by other whose infringement has been induced by Microsoft;

b. Judgment that Microsoft account for and pay to Vertical all damages to and costs incurred by Vertical because of Microsoft?s infringing activities and other conduct complained of herein;

c. That Vertical be granted pre-judgment and post-judgment interest on the damages caused to it by reason of Microsoft?s infringing activities and other conduct complained of herein;

d. That this Court declare this an exceptional case and award Vertical its reasonable attorneys? fees and costs in accordance with 28 U.S.C. ? 285;

e. That Microsoft?s infringement be found willful and that the Court award increased damages of three times the actual damages awarded;

f. That Microsoft be permanently enjoined from any further activity or conduct that infringes any claims of United States Patent No. 6,824,744; and

g. That Vertical be granted such other and further relief as the Court or jury may deem just and proper under the circumstances.

Respectfully Submitted,
________________________________
T. John Ward, Jr.
State Bar No. 00794818
LAW OFFICE OF T. JOHN WARD, JR., P.C.
111 W. Tyler Street
Longview, Texas 75601
(903) 757-6400
(903) 757-2323 (fax)
jw@jwfirm.com
Eric M. Albritton
State Bar No. 00790215
ALBRITTON LAW FIRM
P.O. Box 2649
Longview, TX 75606
(903) 757-8449
(903) 758-7397 (fax)
ema@emafirm.com
Attorneys for Plaintiff
Plaintiff Vertical Computer Systems, Inc.

Just a note in comparing November year-over-year Zune numbers.

Zunes didn't go on sale until November 14th in 2006. So the year over year charts are comparing two weeks of sales numbers from 2006 with a full month of sales numbers in 2007. Even if sales remained constant from 2006 to 2007, you'd expect to see the total number sold increase year over year.

Now after being an extremelly unhappy iPod Classic 160G owner I can understand guyst that buy Zune. They may simply did what I did eariler and had their share of Apple experience. Some nice things about latest 6th generation iPod classic:

- music interrupts every few minutes (yes, the mp3s are perfectly encoded and itunes as well as winamp, mediaplayer and all other 3 portable mp3 players play the perfectly)
- horrible delays in operating the menus makes you belive you haven't touched the command hard enough. After insisting to rotate, the iPod that took a pause do everything you wanted and more than that. It is a painful experience.
- tracks marked as being from a gapless album actually make a short and disturbing pause while moving from one to another.
- trying to change a cover of an album leaves the cover black (you have to delete the cover art or the whole album and put it back).
- when you try to put a cover to an album and open the jpeg file, you have to wait for 5 to 45 secods to open it (that's for a 100k jpeg on a core 2 duo cpu with 2GB of RAM).
- for such an expensive toy like an iPod Classic 160G, the headphones are absolute rubish.
- for such an expensive toy like... you don't get nothing in the box except for a cable (that's propietary of course - it's Apple). Not even a cloth for cleaning the toy - wich would me more of a gesture of good will. To me opening the iPod Classic box was one of the most dissapointing and frustrating experience in years.

To all this add the fact that you have to use the addware lamentable iTunest that when happen to crash may quite well tash all your ipod settings (it happened to me once). Once you put the music in the iPod you have to resort to hacks to get it back (witout cover artwork that gets lost in the process). Backing up an iPod content is not a supported scenario. To change the battery after a year or so of usage they will change the whole toy with a different "refurbished" one that may be half broken. I take care of my device so I dould expect to get the service for MY OWN iPod, not to get a trashed one that happens to work when they do the switch. Want more? Here it is another one: the player is completely empty when you buy it. I would expect at least one single track for testing if nothing more (even an Apple commercial would be better than nothing). Nothing like that. Lamentable. And something more about the look/aspect of the player: it is really overused and abused. Who would find a car like every car depicted on every sign for last ... many years. One would think that a company will change a little bit the design to make it less borring. Well - iPod Classic is the most boring and stereotype consumer product for some time now.

You would ask why one would buy it then? For me there were two reasons: capacity and the myth that the sound of an iPod is good. Well - good as it may be - if the music iterrupts for 2-3 seconds every few minutes, the whole experience is totally inacceptable. That's someting you wouln't notice in the shop - it's a surprise reserved for your personal discovery.

For me that was the one and only iPod product ever. Easier now to see why more people try to buy someting different?

Just got a Zune 80 and absolutely love it. My kids received iPod Nanos from their grandmother, but are surprisingly jealous of my Zune. Ha!

I hear the new squircly zunes are good and that's good to hear.

But dear Ovi, i think your view on this might be a little.. um unfairly slanted. Here's my take on your painpoints:
.) Music interrupts - faulty iPod, these things happen, format, send back, whatever, but it's not a standard problem with any iPod model.
.) Delays in the menu - I'm with you as far as coverflow goes. the rest of the menu works as responsive as ever which is very. The video clip thingy on the right might not turn up straight away but the highlight on the left jumps to video straight away.
.) Gapless tracks issue - i think that might be related to your first issue. Same advice.
.) Cover art changing issue - sorry can't give you any experience on that other than it works for me but i already had all my cover art populated before i got an ipod classic.
.) Headphones rubbish - well their basic yes, as are all included headphones - based on reviews the most rubbish of all seem to be the Zune4 headphones.

I don't mean to try and convince you you're crazy and you should really like what you bought - i don't care. Just thought i'd put some perspective on what you put forward as the standard iPod experience.

As for iTunes, it seems very much a preference thing. Personally i still lament the demise of the ol'e pre-AOL Winamp. But i know quite a few people through my work in IT that use iTunes even though they don't have an iPod or a Mac. They just like the way it works - go figure..

Oh and lastly, i don't know anybody in the world who uses their PMP/iPod/Zune as the sole storage location for their music. It's designed to sync with the music library on your computer - that applies to many more devices than the iPod.

Whatever: thanks. Of course what I told is just my story. I expected a lot from the iPod classic and you know - the more you believe - the harder you fall. I guess I expected it to be nearly perfect - at least better than the no-name little thingies that you can win in a beer-drinking competition.

I can say that the sluggishnes in menus happens to me not only with coverflow (although there it is the most visible). It happens sometimes even when I try to adjust the volume (when what whatever reason the HDD starts spinning and I have to wait until it catches up) - that is very annoying but not by far as annoying as the music interruptions I get periodically.

Working in sync with a library is a scenario that works well with a lower capacity device. When it comes to libraries of 100GB+ that option becomes inconvenient (think about peple that use a notebook with HDD capacities about the same as the iPod's). I guess that the iPod capacities are no longer conveniently covered by the working scenarios that iTunes provides. A full backup option should be present and a minimal in iTunes considering you cannot backup the content as you can with almost any other player than Apple's.

The problems with interruptions in music seem to be quite frequent doing a search on the web. It may be a defect but it's hard to believe there are than many defective units out there. I (as a software developer) feel like this may be more of a bug in firmware (it happens sometimes when the buffter gets empty and it is not filled in time).

Another frustrating experience when opening the box (that I forgot mentioning): I downloaded iTunes as instructed and installed it and I connected the new ipod to my computer. iTunes insisted that it cannot access the iPod and I should reset it. I followed the instructions repeatedly without any luck. Everything went away when I upgraded firmware from v1.0.1 to 1.0.3. The error message was just wrong - it should say clearly that I need to upgrade in order to get connected.

Returning the product that is not clearly defective is not that as easy in every country as it is in the US I'm afraid. I tried to go back to the shop explaining that it seems to be a problem with the thing and they assured me it works perfectly and the problems (that happen intermitently) may be caused by anything else than the iPod itself (me, my music files, my computer etc).

Overall a bad experience from start to end. I can understand other may have different experience but being silent only makes other people think (like I did) that iPod is something much better than it really is.

Did I mention that when I put the not-so-cheap protective case on the iPod, it won't fit in the universal dock anymore? I have to choose to use one of them so the universal dock was also some money thrown on the window (or should I say osx ? :)

I also miss WinAmp 2, pure, simple and effective ;)

Hi Ovi,
thanks for the reply, i was kind of expecting to get flamed for my post. hmm sounds like a pretty crappy experience all round... :(
You're right it could be a firmware issue combined with the mix/ratio of what's in your library compared to mine, etc...

In case you're still trying to get it to work rather than having sold it, here's some details on my setup to compare:
iPod Classic 80GB v1.03, iTunes 7.5 (19) (<- osx not win)
library: ~3900 audio (90% mp3, 10% aac) - 22GB; 17movies - 4GB; 51tvshows - 7GB; 73 podcasts - 3GB;

I do kinda see your point in terms of iPod storage vs. sync, but as someone who works in IT i'd be very hesitant to create a system where user's live data is kept in a mobile hard drive designed to be taken around, crashed, stolen, etc.. Although i believe the principal reason is around copy protection / limiting casual file trading. Given the current setup, the backup however is pretty easily taken care of on the PC side of things.

Oh and lastly - it really did whip the llama's ass! :)

I dont disagree with you, but I think to compete with ipod zune has to have less price than ipod. Plus with HDD based zines, ipod has 160GB classic ipod but zune has none, plus MSFT still hasnt launched zune worldwide, im in UK and a lot of people are dying ot get their hands on to a zune. I think with the right price, availability of the product local and international and with both flash based 4, 8 and 16GB zunes and HDD based 30, 80 and 160GB Microsoft can easily win over a great deal of market share from Apple iPod.

Here's what I think as a consumer and as a sales person. I have owned both. First starting with Ipod 60g video for myself and the 1g nano for my wife. It did the basic things that I wanted it to do but both my wife and I were continuously having issues with them freezing and not turning off. This happened to both of our units. what turned me on to a Zune was my little brother-in-law. He had a brown one that he bought from a pawn shop because his 30g Ipod was malfunctioning. He showed me all about it and I really was impressed. I have two Zunes now, 30g black and 4g black. I use them every day in my line of work and have never had any issues with them not working properly. I also really enjoyed the firmware upgrade on my 30g unit because I like the new interface on the V2 units. the first generation was bulky and not too attractive but after 6 months of moderate use...neither was my ipod. It was scratched horribly on both sides and from a couple of drops there were some chips on the side.
I really enjoy the Zune much better than the Ipods I have had and its always good to know that if there is a feature that I want on a newer unit, Microsoft will always have the firmware and software updates for FREE!Not to mention from some of the reviews above, the 80g unit comes with an awsome set of premium earbuds that retail for $40 already in the box.
As far as sales go, there is a reason Ipods do so well....name and advertising! They have built this market for mp3 players and you know what....the pimple faced salesperson you get at BB or CC does not know how to qualify a customer for the right mp3 player (notice I did not say Ipod). To them, a sale is a sale, and if a customer has no clue that there is a better mp3 player for the price, the associate does not care. all they want is for you to buy a box and the warranty, which I always buy. I have had too many ipod issues and have replaced so many of them, it would be stupid not to get it.
I work in all of these retailers and work directly with mp3 players everyday and these are the things I see. Apple has a good product but the Zune is better!

Flip

As an owner of both an iPod 80gb classic and a Zune 30 (Brown one, at that) I can honestly say that I prefer the Zune. I like the clicky 'wheel' much better than the overly sensitive iPod wheel. The Zune 30, with the firmware update, is far more responsive and has a nicer ui. Zune does not do as much as iPod with it's extras and games, but, really, iPod does not do those very well. The Zune marketplace is a bit weaker than the iTunes store, but Zune Marketplace, again, looks better, is easy to use and loads a lot quicker than iTunes. If I purchased a great deal of music, I might prefer the iTunes store, but I don't. I am a podcast junky, so that is what I listen to the most. Zune Marketplace does a great job with podcasts, as does iTunes. The only area where iTunes Store really outdoes Zune Marketplace is video. iTunes has way more. For that reason alone, I will use the iPod. For everything else, it is Zune. It is ashame that Zune Marketplace lacks the video variety since the Zune screen is much, much bigger and better than the iPod. While I prefer Zune, you really cannot go wrong with either.

I finally won the battle against iPods. My daughter wanted one of those dreadful and ubiquitous devices since two years ago and I always dodged her request. Zune 30 was simply too uncool for her, because it was ugly and bulky (her words). (see link below for a post I did to that respect in my blog)

This Christmas, and thanks to Zune Originals, she finally settled for a Zune 4 with an engraved artwork she chose by herself.
Now she loves her new, small, personalized, stylish, green (!), and definitively super cool Zune. Her girl friends are amazed by it, also love the custom painting in its back, and many of them now are asking their parents to replace their common and uncool iPods for a new and totally cool Zune.

Being the parent of a 13 year old girl is now easier thanks to Zune Originals :-)

Mario - from your website "I have never bought an iPod or any other Apple product, because I'm an soft-core anti-Apple advocate (long story)."
What a shock - your 13 year old now has a Zune. My golly, MS are really firing on all cylinders...

I always say shopping is cheaper than a psychiatrist. -Tammy Faye Bakker :o) Happy Holidays!