People recognize value. The ads just crystallized what everyone already knows to be true: Macs suck and are way way overpriced and the people who like them best are the rainbow coalition types. Few Moms would want their sons near a Mac. Have a look at what's become of the "I'm a Mac" Guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lL2F6mw9pk

Shocking, whot? So, yeah, HP please .. or Sony .. or Acer .. but thanks but no thanks Mac.

You are absolutely right. I want a laptop made of cheap black plastic. I want a low resolution screen. I want malware and viruses.
I want lots of popup advertising. I want to choose between a dozen operating systems.

I guess I'll go with some windows POS.

@Uncle Bernie

Please don't sound desperate, it's unbecoming.

When I was in Best Buy last week there was lots of interest in laptops under $500. Big crowd jostling to play with them. Then no interest in more expensive PC laptops, desktops or Macs. I think people are impressed with what you can get now for under $500. Hopefully what they buy lasts a couple of years before self-destructing. Won't be good for the environment if they don't last and all go into the landfill with all the toxic chemicals they are made of.

Clump, you are one of the most objective and analytical folks around: 'Macs suck' and 'Few moms would want their sons near a Mac' are extremely thoughtful and well researched observations.

However, I agree that the MSFT ads are working. They focus on cost, and (if you don't look under the hood at the specs) on value. This for the hardware.

The ads rightly don't compare OS's because that would be a disaster. And they don't look at the overall user experience, for the same reason.

But their focus is right on, and I think this will be a very successful campaign for MSFT.

@smist08

I have a year-old Acer, but I'm careful with it and it seems to truck right along. The RAM had to be upgraded because Vista likes its RAM, but now works very well. I also have an IBM Thinkpad [Pentium III] .. it's quite a number of years old, keeps on ticking and I intend to use it for years more - 'runs Windows Server and yes, the case is black plastic.

Barring misuse, a computer should last quite a while.

BTW Has at last Apple decided to do something about it's toxic lead problem? So they won't be as toxic in the landfill as they used to be? Or is it still poison Apples?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/hp-apple-toxic-laptops180906

Clump makes money from removing spyware/viruses/backing up Windows. Of course he wants to discourage Mac use, Time Machine alone would cost him thousands a year if Microsoft ever copied it.

Lets not forget, keeping people on the upgrade treadmill.

The best FUD he can come up with is that using a Mac will make your son gay. Next he will be explaining how the Mac can lead to drug abuse and finally death. He is obviously very insecure if he things a computer can turn him homosexual.

The problem for Microsoft is that if people buy cheap laptops with cheap XP on them then they will actually lose revenue even if laptop sales increase. Increased laptop sales does not mean more revenue for Microsoft so I am a bit confused as to why they are advertising them.

They should be explaining all the benefits of upgrading to Vista so that they make more money on each laptop. The message should be 'make sure your next PC has Vista on it', but we all know why they aren't doing that.

@Fitz

Well yes, it would be better if we didn't look at the software. The PC platform is open. Microsoft Windows has to compete with versions of itself, various distributions of Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, DexOS, ClassiOS, various rendtions of DOS and so on and even on rare occasion legacy software such as BeOS; and, of course, it would have to compete with anything anyone wants to write for the x86/x64 platform.

Whereas on the Apple platform, Apple exercises its monopoly [probably illegally] such that no competition is allowed and only OSX is installed on new Apple computers.

Now that the platform bigots have had their say, I'd like to suggest that the ad campaigns are really beside the point. Both Microsoft and Apple have a LONG way to go before there products will be really satisfactory for normal people who want to be able to use a computer without having to futz with it. I speak as a computer professional with 25 years experience with PCs. Right now, I have a Windows XP box down with a virus that my so-called Internet Security package won't remove and a Mac Book Pro with disk errors that need to be repaired to remove my data before replacing the hard drive.

The Windows box was infected while running non-Administrator accounts behind a firewall with anti-virus, anti-spyware and firewall software running on it, due to an unpatched operating system vulnerability.

The Mac with disk errors has led me in search of Mac disk repair software, which like other types of diagnostic software, is way behind the Windows world (perhaps because these problems are more common on Windows machines). The Apple philosophy seems to be "It won't break, and if it does, we will fix it, not you" (taking 1 - 2 weeks in the process).

Personal computers are becoming increasingly indispensable in business, education and personal life. They are not reliable or easy enough to use for the average 80 year old, the average person who graduated from high school 25 years ago or the average teenager. Microsoft and Apple (and the Linux geeks, for that matter), should spend more on ease of use, reliability and security and less on UI fluff and advertising puff. Why not look at industry progress in those areas that benefit the customer rather than this quarter's marketing programs.

As a long time Microsoft stockholder (long enough that I'm still ahead, even at the current stock price), I would prefer see real improvements that really benefit the customer rather than the smoke and mirrors that Microsoft seems to be concentrating on these days. 5 different versions of the OS? GUI looks so inefficient that they bog down processors less than 5 years old? OS versions that sell for almost more than the hardware it runs on? Please. Microsoft is starting to look more like GM or Proctor & Gamble than like a technology company. Customers are partners to engage in a mutually beneficial long-term relationship, not sheep to be fleeced. The technology press could contribute by covering technology and usefulness to users. Covering advertising programs is the tech press equivalent of articles on Hollywood divorces in the regular press.

Clump, let me see if I understand your point re. software: You're saying that the OS and overall user experience on a Mac are better because "Apple exercises its monopoly [probably illegally] such that no competition is allowed". Right?

And of course MSFT and Windows (with roughly 90% of the installed base) is NOT in a monopoly position????

Cool.

"The numbers show what Microsoft is doing right.", as a marketing company I'd agree. As a software company I totally disagree. Seven will be better than Vista. But how could it possibly be worse?!?! Yet the question stands. Is Microsoft doing the best it can do to deliver a good product? In my opinion, no.

Looking at it from a consumer perspective there is very little choice. There is Windows with a lot of hardware options. It doesn't matter what letter comes at the end of your wireless card you still depend on Windows for network support. Having an HDMI output or a Blu-ray player isn't going to make MS Office look better. And it sure looks nicer on a Mac. Why is that? Why do Microsoft apps look better on Mac than on Windows?

Now it's real nice to have a laptop for $699 with a finger print reader. But having Windows Home Premium doesn't allow me to encrypt my hard drive (unlike OS X which does include it). So what's the point of the finger print reader if they steal the laptop and pull out the drive from the back? Mhhh???

As mentioned in another post, what's the point of Blu-ray if the screen isn't full HD? What's the point of Vista Ultimate with a top notch NVidia card if theres a bug in the driver that makes Windows Vista crash (as I had the experience with a friend)? Why boast touch screen on Seven when laptops with Vista still don't dominate the two finger scroll present on Mac touch pads for many years now?

If Microsoft was doing things right companies would be all over Vista. But they're not. That shows that when Vista is a choice it is not the chosen choice.

Consumers on the ads don't have a choice. They can move around the hardware specs, but it still the same Vista. The ads don't address the differences between a Mac and a PC with Windows. Except that they cost more and provide less hardware. Which would be fine if I never turned on the laptop. Heck then yea I'd say I got a better bargain out of buying a PC.

When you turn on the machine and it boots into an OS then the features of the OS come into play. Networking, ease of use, security (I already mentioned the encryption issue), stability, features etc. Those weight heavily against Vista and are not addressed by the ads.

If hardware and price were made equal among the machines the ads would fail to provide a value in choosing Vista. Nowhere can this be seen clearer than in business. They have an OS option and they choose XP.

So over the past 8 years Microsoft has failed to provide added value for their OS and is now trying to cover this up by billing the retailers and OEMs. It is them, the retailers and OEMs, who now pay for Microsoft's incompetence. It is them who have to bundle high resolutions screens, blu-rays, among other features with dirt low prices. All so people choose Windows over OS X.

It is the antivirus developers, the cd burning software developers and all those crapware developers that pay the OEMs to bundle their stuff so the PC costs less. In the hopes that you as a consumer will pay for their software down the road. Thus making up for the price difference you didn't want to pay in the retail store in the first place.

@billybob

lol

"..how the Mac can lead to drug abuse .."

Well, the I'm a Mac Guy was doing some pretty heavy drinking there.

Yup, if I had a son - I don't - I would keep him away from Mac (and any other male who had an eye for his as_s). And I wouldn't give him a pink Sony laptop nor a rainbow coalition Apple neither.

@The Clam

Was the Windows box unpatched because there is no patch, or because the patch wasn't installed? You have to patch any system when knowledge of a critical vulnerabilty arises or you risk compromise.

Clump, your FUD is very old. Strangely, Microsoft is now rated as being less environmentally friendly than Apple and virtually all the other hardware manufacturers.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/toxics/electronics/how-the-companies-line-up

Apple are moving up whilst most of the PC manufacturers are moving down.

"Whereas on the Apple platform, Apple exercises its monopoly [probably illegally] such that no competition is allowed and only OSX is installed on new Apple computers."

The sale of Apple branded computers is not a market so how can you have a monopoly in it? They do not supply their computers with Windows, but they let you run anything you like on it with Boot Camp or just by installing over OSX.

@The Clam

You know that OSX comes with fsck by default which can find and repair filesystem problems? That is probably why you found it hard to find third-party tools. You just need to reboot into single user mode and then run fsck. If you want a really low level tool then it doesn't matter what OS you use, the tools are the same.

@billybob

Apple branded computers are the only Apple computers in the Apple compatible market. Anyone who tried to build Apple compatible computers 'back when was sued silly by Apple.

It's the ulitmate computer monopoly: all the main hardware, and on every one the Apple operating system pre-installed only, and much of the software .. all Apple's. And dare no one try to get in without Apple's approval. Even when Windows is put on a Mac, you have to use Apple software to install and launch it .. else risk lawsuit. It's a disgraceful situation.

Anyone can build an Apple compatible PC (whatever that means - I will assume you mean OSX compatible). We have seen many many Hackintoshes so it proves you can make OSX compatible hardware without being sued.

If you mean you cannot redistribute OSX otherwise than in accordance than with the license then that is correct, it is the same for all software though. Even Microsoft has restrictions on what you can do with an OEM copy of Windows.

Why would you get sued for putting Windows directly on Apple hardware? Show me one case where that has happened or the clause in the Apple purchase agreement that says you cannot do that.

"And dare no one try to get in without Apple's approval."

Anyone can write an application for OSX, just like Windows. In fact it is easier because the tools are cheaper. Stop spreading FUD.

What are you really scared of Clump? People are not going to need your Windows fixing skills in 10 years time?

@Clump, since the problem is still not fixed, I can't tell you whether it should have been patched or not. I don't patch on Patch Tuesday. Not since the time a few years ago when I had 400+ unusable machines due to the same day installation of a Microsoft "patch". Your obvious bigotry about Windows indicates lack of knowledge and perspective that makes your arguments easy to dismiss. If you were a little more objective and used facts rather than ridiculous "everybody knows" statements, people might take you more seriously.

@billybob, fsck and single user mode might be workable for me, but not for most Mac (or Windows) users. My point was that the gap between fsck and sending the machine back to Apple is filled, on Windows, by 2 or 3 levels of tools to fix problems that address various levels of user knowledge and seriousness of problem. On Mac, these levels seem empty.

I've been a PC guy for decades now...However last month when I walked into an Apple store after 20 years, I must say I was very impressed. Both with the price and the OS... for the first time in my life..I'm considering a MAC...not for the name but for the stability and features. MS has a long way go!!! I love the (mac)linux O/S!!!

The Clam, If single user mode is too hard, then click spotlight, type "disk" and then click disk utility. From there you have a simple pointy clicky interface to check (they call it verify) and repair disks.

And if you want something more powerful then you can use this.

http://www.alsoft.com/DiskWarrior/index.html

I really do not think you even tried looking.

And don't try to tell me that good Windows disk recovery tools are free.

Hi Joe, isn't Frys just a great store? I have to avoid the place as much as possible, as every time I go into the place I spend. But Frys is about bargains, and usually they have cheaper computers on sale, especially in the laptops, is what I have noticed.

So this whole M$ advertising scheme of were cheaper, sure, its going pay off in the middle of a terrible world wide recession. Not because Windows is a better value than Mac, not because Windows is cheaper than Mac OS X, its not. What is cheaper, is the computers made by the OEM's, as compared to Apple computers. Sadly the one point "cheapness," has been in no way enhanced by Micro$oft. For that the credit must be given where credit is due, to HP, Dell, Lenvono, Toshiba, etc, the manufacturers. The manufacturers and competition from AMD, ATI and Nvidia, are the basic reasons why OEM computers are so cheap. In fact, they are cheap despite the high cost of M$ Windose. Its sad when this monopoly threw its advertising imply that they (M$) are the reason those computers are cheap.

So the best reason to buy a "windows computer" is not because windows is better than mac, but because the OEM made cheaper computers. Its sad, when M$, all they got, is someone else, the OEM's is saving us. I ask the question, if Mac or Linux came on the same computers for the same price as Vista, which would you choose?

So on the other side of the issue, is will Mac lower prices and come out with new models with lower prices? While I would have bet on that, I seen an article that Steve Jobs is still basically calling all the shots from his home and is expected to go back to work in June full time. Somehow, Steve Jobs will most likely try to keep up the price and the profit. Good luck on that.

Cheap is what is mostly selling now, sure they are still those with money that can spend more. But the demographics are changing with the recession and people are looking at cheap and value in a different survival kind of way. 6 months ago, when things were better, a lot of these folks might have gone for a Mac.

I love that clump sees Apple being able to control the software they put on their machines as a disgraceful monopoly. They are able to exercise precise software and hardware releases, better ad campaigns, and an overall better user experience because of the control they have. If that's wrong...then I don't want to be right.

@billybob

You say:

"If you mean you cannot redistribute OSX otherwise than in accordance than with the license then that is correct, it is the same for all software though. Even Microsoft has restrictions on what you can do with an OEM copy of Windows."

Sure, there might be the odd restriction i.e. one can't steal Windows, but basically and for the most part, Microsoft Windows can be install on just about any computer one can get it to run on.

But here's Apple VP Phil Schiller what says about OSX:

"We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac"

Restriction: absolute and 100%.

IMHO, is an anti-competitive practice making things very difficult for OEMs who might want to build Apple compatible computers. Disgraceful.

what self respecting mac buyer buys their mac at best buy?

I'm not in favorites with either Apple or Microsoft, but in Microsoft's defense, Apple does have the luxury of writing software for specific hardware. Microsoft does not. I know you can build computers that will run OS X, but you have to use an emulator, ect. and the average joe doesn't know much about that. And once again, before I get called a PC lover, I'm not really a fan of either OS.

Also, I agree with The Clam that Microsoft's anti-virus, "fix the problem" software is better than Apples. But to be fair, Apple doesn't really need it that bad since they don't have as a big a problem as Microsoft does it that department

Well, there seems to be an awful lot of smoke being blown out of an unnamed body orafice in this forum.

Remvoing allegiances and emotion out of the equation; I'm a Windows/PC user at work and spend most of my time and earn most of my discretionary income working on Windows PC's.

If it wasn't for the Randsomware, Malware, Spyware, Scumware and Trojans not to mention the old fashioned Viruses I'd be looking for a new line of work.

What comptuer do I use at home? I have a 5 year old G5 PowerMac with dual processors that still out performs most of the new PC's that I work on...

IMHO, with all things considered, the Mac is by far a better value which stays relevant for a much longer period than Windows PC do.

@clump
You are retarded!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1OOqaefws

Ok so yea Windows sells more they are more compatible I play games on them and stuff. But paying for the anti virus worrying about the Conficker Worm. and if you want to play old games Vista just hates you. I think Windows are doing these campaigns because of the fact that Vista sucked so much. I meant the mojave project woow that was sad. Also HP has agreed to keep selling XP instead of Vistas on some of there laptop. I mean i like both Mac for media no viruses cool features and Windows for games. BUT also Mac has BOOT camp where i have XP not Vista cause for one vista is a killer in HD space. Vista hates XP and so many compatible problems. Now i cant wait for snow leopard. So the thing is i personally rather have a MAC.

Retarded??

Sounds like you have some anger management issues.

When one reverts to name calling instead of expressing themselves with either facts or personal experience, it becomes apparent, you have nothing to say that would substantiate your position.

Can't waste my time on youtube either, I'm sure its someones skewed personal opinion.

By the way, Bryan spelled with a Y is always a gay indicator, and an angry gay at that!

Keep buying those cheap PC honeypots. Best virsus protection, I've ever owned.

@Bryan

Does Windows always play cool music when it blue screens? It's been so long I don't remember.

And talking about long, the video is dated. Not a single error box appeared to from an app running on Vista. Is it that Vista has fewer bugs or that the Apple guys are showing their desparation, reaching back into the past to find things wrong with Windows. It's 2009, not 1997.

@dave

lol

@Scawt

You should want to be right. It is grossly unfair that Apple treats companies that want to make Apple compatible computers with such contempt. Apple behaves like a monopolist and a bully. Except for Apple's bank account, everyone looses including Apple customers who have their choice restricted and their prices inflated.

The more I support Windows®, the more I love my Mac.

And after reading the forum trolls here, I think it's time for a karmic flush (which I fully expect one troll to exploit in a subsequent comment).

Cheers all!

--
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.

Why are Lisa and Jackson buying a laptop when it sounds as though they're not even going to be taking it out of the house?

If I buy a motherboard I will do whatever I want with it,Linux, MS, or else...For the same price than a Mac I will connect 2 or 3 PC with a hub on a Lan Network , sync them,Perhaps one of them will run Linux as a server...But if you prefer the plastic of a Mac...

@Sarge

Facts or personal experience? So Clumps "facts" or "personal experience" is that "Macs suck and are way way overpriced and the people who like them best are the rainbow coalition types." I stand by my first succinct post - retard!

Are you a bit homophobic Sarge. Are you a "Drill" Sarge or are you the one bending over? Anyone who would call themselves Sarge is ALWAYS a gay indicator.

@Clump

Pot calls kettle black, more at 11:00

"Apple guys are showing their desparation, reaching back into the past to find things wrong with Windows."

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/hp-apple-toxic-laptops <-- Article from 2006

While I Mac vs Windows is a great debate, it still is just not FREE like linux. But I do believe that Mac, like Linux, has some great advantages over Windows, like almost no malware.

But maybe, some of you Windows fanboi's would believe it more if you heard it straight from the Jamaican blogger Andre himself. Notice the first post on this link say Andre Da Costa.
www.activewin.com/awin/default.asp

but here it is, in Andre's own words on a MS fan type site:

"I could spell out the reasons why I prefer OS X to Windows. There are the negative ones (no viruses, no Registry, etc.), but the positive ones matter more. The superior fit-and-finish of OS X isn’t just a matter of aesthetics (though those don’t hurt). As the Apple mantra puts it, design is about the way things work. OS X is a really well- designed tool. It makes it easier for me to do virtually everything I do on a computer. By comparison, I find Windows clunky: Configuring and troubleshooting it are painful, the security thing is a pain, and it’s crashy. To me, it just doesn’t work as well as OS X."
--------------------------------------------------
This is your post isn't it Andre? And while you are at it, how about telling us about those "free" computers from Micro$oft?
--------------------------------------------------
Can it be, that even Andre Da Costa, the M$ Shill, is really Mac's biggest fan?

I like how people think they cannot get a virus or spyware on a mac. They do exist and apple have been shown to be slower to admit and patch issues. While Microsoft tends to patch when someone finds the potential for a bug, apple waits until someone exploits it. And to the people who buy a mac for the speed/stability/security why dont you just save the money and go to linux which is the best at them all. If I can get 4 18-21 year old girls who are not very computer savy to use it with no training or classes need I am sure all you guys could.

They've replaced the "Intel Inside" stickers with "Lauren Loves It", "Giampaolo says 'Adamo" and "Mother's Little Helper" stickers and the Lemmings eat it up like inbred PC rednecks. All they need is a degree from the Computer Professor and they can display photos like a four-year old. Mac commercials are way over their heads because Mac-users wear shoes.

@Andre Da Costa:

Hey in all fairness, I want to give you a chance to respond to my other post, in which you are quoted as loving Mac. This is your post, is it not?

Also I wanted to give you another chance to explain the free desktop and laptop computers from Micro$oft. And maybe while on that subject, you might explain how someone from one of the western hemispere's poorest countries can afford to jetset so often to the USA and stay in hotels, etc.?

@Detective Goblin:
It would seem that all those other posts about Andre being a closet Mac user are true? Message coming.

My guess is that Joe Willcox, will not use 7even for very long, he too like Andre, is a Mac user.

I think this is a good news. I am shopping for a laptop, and it definitely shall be Apple. I am waiting for price to drop. I hope that all these idiots who are buying windows junk, will force Apple to drop prices, so I can buy my at a discount. But even if prices will remain the same I will still buy Apple. There are basically 2 choices. One is to buy Apple right away. Another choice is to buy windows machine which will not work of course, and buy Apple after windows machine will be thrown in the garbage

Mostly this is just at Clump! After almost 30 years in the PC compatible industry, I've been happily in the Mac world now for two years. Thank-you Joe for all the advice through the years, and your unbiased view when reporting.
I started back when you had to boot from a floppy in order for the system to run. After decades of disgust with MS platforms and software, I am ecstatic to be a Mac guy. (BTW Clump it hasn't made me gay either!) I've been using a MacBook with OS X for over two years now. No crashes. No blue screens. No lockups. No viruses. No spyware/malware. EVER!!! But best of all Clump; I'm still using the same hardware it came with, and it works as well as it did the day I bought it. I can understand your apprehension when you talk so scathingly about the Mac though. If MS continues to produce *#@& like Vista, you may well be looking for work in the near future.
With my MacBook I actually get work done, rather than patching, scanning, upgrading, or making a boat anchor with my PC! Mac's Rule!!!
Jed

@Chips
Thanks for the mail. Ive replied.
-
@Jed Curtis
Whilst I have little experience with MACs, I can say that the wife has had no issues with hers.
-
She has neither the knowledge or interest to mess around with a machine giving her problems. She simply expects the thing to "just work" and will get quite irate if it doesnt. When she had her Windows laptop life was miserable, every couple of days Id be messing on with it.
-
Shes yet to complain about or have a problem with her MAC, so even if people want to bang on about MACS costing more, for me it was money well spent and saved me alot of grief.

@Jed and all the Mac supporters.

I find it amazing that you claim Macs are so great, yet when the rubber hits the road you are so bored with Macs and the Apple platform you spend your time reading about Windows and Microsoft. You don't see me on any Apple forum. I'm not the least bit interested.

Why aren't you so excited doing Apple things on the Apple platform that you have no time for watching Microsoft? Because you have a limited selection of apps and almost no games. Apples do not satisfy you at the computing level. Sad. Like a movie with an all male cast, Apples are dull. So, instead, you "watch Microsoft".

In contrast, I visit here to get info on my favourite computing platform: x32/x64 running Windows. It's all I care about on computers. I don't go to Mac World or Apple Watch or whatever your forums and online magazines are called.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Real computing is about the x32/x64 computer and Microsoft Windows. That's where the fun is. That's where the apps are. That's why you are here.

In contrast to you, I choose a platform and operating system that captivates me and that I enjoy using and working with and having fun with. I couldn't care less if I ever saw a Mac or heard about Apple again except they are a bit fun to riducle [like anything in the rainbow coalition].

My suggestion? Scurry off to your Mac forums if Apple computing is so great. Why are you trolling things PC if Apple computing is so happy and gay?

Clump says:
"Real computing is about the x32/x64 computer and Microsoft Windows. That's where the fun is. That's where the apps are."
----------------------------------------------------
let me add to that. That's where the malware is, viruses, spyware, adware, scumware, trojans, BSOD, M$ Tax, WGA, DRM, online activation, and its costs too much. Linux and Mac don't seem to have much of that. But the good news is, you can spend a lot of your time on windows, having fun, updating and scanning with your anti virus malware programs. And you can even have more fun with windows, finding out which are false positives and deleting critical system files. Have fun Clump. I know I will never miss it.

But it does seem that you are not Andre, as Andre seems to love Mac more than Windows.

@Goblin,
Mac do work, even though they cost more. If you notice, while I prefer Linux to Mac, I do say that Mac can be the cheaper OS to Windows (not Linux) over the long run. There is just too much maintenance on Windows to overcome the lack of default security. For most Windows users, they going pay when they get their computers compromised. BTW, another message.

@chips b malroy

If you don't miss it, then why are you on Microsoft Watch? Why oh why oh why why why .. hmmm

Nothing to do? No games worth playing? Things dull as a movie with an all male cast? Boring Apple, crummy linux? No games and file serving boring you to tears?

So you come to watch Microsoft, desperate of course, because it is better than anything the dull Apple platform has to offer. Yes, I've seen the game section and all the titles are for PCs running Windows.

A little care and a Windows user won't catch malware, but there's a heck of a lot to do on the PC. Apple's and Linux's security by obscurity models are tenuously holding for the time, but those platform are as dull as dull can be. So dull the users of those platforms come to Microsoft Watch because watching Microsoft is better than having no games at all and relegated to file serving.

There are games on those platform, you say? Oh, whoops, you're right, there's Kill Bill on Linux [funny even how the one game worth playing on Linux is about Microsoft] and, what is it that runs on Apple, WarCraft? ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Yup, the PC and Windows is where it is happening.

Hey Clump,
If those games are so great, why aren't you playing them now?

Clump, you are the same as every M$ shill that has posted here, when you cannot win the debate you attack the messenger, and/or you change the debate. So far you gone from Blue-ray to now games, is it?

Is Linux dull? Not for me, but exciting might be hoping Windows will boot up next time, like playing Russian Roulette. There are more games on Linux that most users will ever want, plus wine, crossover office, and cedega will let user play most windows games as well. But I see that you Clump, are into PAYING lots of bucks, for substandard buggie software that spys on you. Some of us are here to pass on a better way to our fellow Windows users, or to help M$ fix their mess. And shills like you will not stop us.

@Joe.

I live in San Diego, and I'm in frys all the time. It's not abnormal to see people clustered in the computer department oogling Laptops. And theres always more people clustered around the windows based laptops. More to see you understand. Not a platform dis, but with Mac you have what? A handful of choices. Only a few models on display and never a line of people waiting to step up and take a look. The PC section is loaded with everything from 7 inch netbooks to high end Firebird gaming systems.

The only real change that I've noted over the years is the stunning lack of people shopping for memory, Processors, and Motherboards. The do it yourself building thing seems to have jumped off a cliff. Probably due to the low cost options you now have for Desktops. Me... I tend to build my desktops and buy my Laptops prebuilt. My current gaming rig I bought at fry's. A firebird 002 with 6 gigs of memory, quad core processor and 2 high end nvidia boards in SLI, running vista64. The interior design is simply amazing. And the case is built like a fortress. Durable with easy to access hardware. It's almost future proof due to the ease of replacing components. $3000. Pricey but it handles photoshop, Priemere, MSSQL 2005 and autodesk better than any system I've ever owned. Plus I run 3 guest OSes (Ubuntu, Fedora, Server 2008) and hardly even notice the hit when I fire up a game. Definitely worth the money. And games look simply amazing on it. I didn't even know the systems existed, and wasn't looking for a new Desktop, but stumbled across the firebird becuase a crowd of people were standing around drooling over it. I bought it home that day. I hate Frys..... It's like a black hole for my money.

Ha Ha Ha !!!
Boo Hoo Hoo !!!

@chips b malroy

"If those games are so great, why aren't you playing them now?"

Because I'm busy using IE8 to read from Technet and MSDN. However, about a half hour ago I was playing a game of Red Alert 3.

BTW I found your erroneous Russian Roulette analogy humourous, but slightly sad knowing that your pride is getting in the way of your really enjoying computing. Red Alert 3 is FUN.

@The Clam

Clam clumps question was a fair one.

Is the vulnerbility unpatched becaue there is no patch or because you didn't install it?

You say a patch took down 400 computers? You say you're an experienced computer professional, yet you don't test patches before widescale deployment? I'm assuming you use patch management systems like WSUS (Free) or System Configurator.
One wonders about your credentials.

I'll be the first to admit that Malware in the PC ecosystem is the biggest reason to consider another option, OSX or some Linux variant. Case in point I use a Linux VM to surf the web, and get E-mail, and a Macbook for mobile computing. I would love to use Ubuntu for everything but it's not there yet.

So which is it? Did your computer get taken down due to the insecurity of the platform, or because you the professional "your words not mine" can't be bothered to take the proper precautions.

chips b malroy :

Seriousl chips.... DRM?

Enlighten me. When does DRM become an issue in Windows Vista? Because I'll be damned if it's ever effected me. DRM only kicks in if the media or software vendor embeds it in their code. And honestly outside of a few ill configured game protection schemas, and iTunes I'm not even seeing it. The whole DRM issue is fud, and easily avoided by simply avoiding DRM protected media. I get all my music from Amazon and I can copy it and use it anyway I desire. Even Apple is going DRM free with iTunes. I capture and edit TV and other video sources and I can do what I want with it, and chop it up six ways to sunday then re-publish it in any format I want.

So tell me.... where is Vista's DRM impacting my computing ability? I'd really like to know.

@Neil Anderson :
Why are Lisa and Jackson buying a laptop when it sounds as though they're not even going to be taking it out of the house?
_______________________________

Common practice. Saves space. Lots of people do it.

@Neil Anderson :
Why are Lisa and Jackson buying a laptop when it sounds as though they're not even going to be taking it out of the house?
_______________________________

Common practice. Saves space. Lots of people do it.

Quote Clumps "So, instead, you "watch Microsoft".
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So here we now have an confession from Clumps, hes a gamer (nothing wrong with that) however, it seems very strange that our resident two?!? gamers (CC.Torment and Nknow - or Michael Dees) have been replaced with Clumps, another one.
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So Clumps, I can answer your question as to why we watch Microsoft (and before you say I promote Mac, Ive said on my Twitter a while ago that for me personally Id rather use XP than MACos on a laptop)
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I watch Microsoft for two reasons: a/Because Im genuinely interested in what Microsoft is claiming as its "own unique feature" and in many cases its something that alternatives have been enjoying for many years. b/ I comment to challenge incorrect and plain silly remarks, remarks such as "you need a compiler to play a DVD in Linux" or the general FUD that can mislead readers who may not know much about the alternatives. Im all for people making their own minds about their software choices, but its hardly fair on them if its based on one sided propaganda by people with other motives (in some cases) I use Microsoft products at work, so I still have an interest in them. I choose Linux at home because I believe its better. Are you saying Im not welcome on Microsoft Watch?
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and challenging works, it revealed our ex-resident Microsoft promoter with allegations of receiving free gifts, it reveals sites who dont believe in free speech and opinion, and more recently it led to the exposure of someone posing as a legitmate company in order to promote Microsoft stock.
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I hope that answers your question in respect of that.
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Clump, as I said on my site, IMO games are the last bastion of salvation for the Windows platform. Its the only thing (IMO) Microsoft can now claim better "out of the box" sad then that when Wine produces compat with Windows binaries, the games are reported as running better through Linux than through Windows. Games (IMO) are a dying thing on the PC. In recent years its been reported that the gross profit of games has only 14% accounted for by the PC market. Just look at your local stores and see how much space is dedicated to console gaming compared to PC. In my area, PC gaming is a small corner of the shop.
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I think the PC gaming scene is slowly eroding because of two reasons: 1/ because people are not wanting to constantly upgrade their machines to play the latest software & 2/a console solution does not give the user any compat issues, nor does it require workarounds or patches because of some conflict on your particular machine. Console gaming really is "plug in play" whereas PC gaming can be a case of "plug in and pray" I think this is why year on year more people choose consoles as their main source of gaming entertainment in the household.

@Goblin:

I too have a confession to make, at one time I too was a gamer on the PC, dos and windows of course back then. Couldn't want to get to the store and buy a new or even a marked down pc game back then. Desktop computers are really the domain of gamers, as notebooks usually don't quite cut it.

Why did I stop being a gamer? Not sure I entirely did, as I unlike most people, found a ton of good games would play in Linux. There are native games in the Debian and Ubuntu (and other distro's) repo's that install with a click or two. There are native games at Linux Game Tome if you want cutting edge of newness. And as stated before, Wine will let you play many "Windows" games natively in Linux, some better than in Windows itself. But we miss a whole catagory of games, the ones that can be played threw emulators. Emulators such as Dosbox, play all you old Dos games with full sound just fine in Linux. We all have a few of those we could not part with. I will not list all the emulators here that work with Linux, but a few, like: nintendo, playstation one, Dosbox, gameboy, sega, atari, mame, sega, and many many more, should anyone care to look.

One day, I realized that spending so much on games that were only played once, twice or three times and then went into the big box, that it was possible to find better uses of the money. This is one reason that many gamers find, that most of these new games that come out, are not that good, and have very little "replayability" factor. In fact when I moved I had 14 big boxes of games that had to be got rid of, and saved just one small box of games, the ones that I might play again some day. Mostly they turned out to be "classic games," like Sid Meirs games, Prince of Persia Series, Tomb Raider Series, etc.

About a year ago I posted a link about PC gaming, where it stated that at one time 5% of Windows users were gamers, but that number had declined to 2.5% a year ago. Its probably less now. Consider the fact that in mature markets, that Laptop sales have now surpassed desktop sales, spells a bleak future for windows gaming.

Seldom do I see a lot of games on windows computers bought in for repair either. Although one factor is that gamers can usually fix their own computers. Mostly I see that most windows users play games like solitaire and bejeweled. They are not real cutting edge games, but retro-gamers. As such, for retro-gamers Linux is well suited with just its native games in the repo's alone, without looking elsewhere. So my point is, gaming advantage Windows, not anymore, Linux has made huge strides even here, in what used to be one of the last Windows selling points.

A partial but out of date looking list of linux emulator here:
http://www.usinglinux.org/emulators/

Chips, I know you love Windows, I do too. :) Hey, how come you email Goblin, but you don't email me? Is that how you treat a friend?

Those excellent Microsoft ads are inmediately shut if Apple decide to put Mac OS X vs Windows Vista in a new ad campaign, then, what you make save buying a poor featured laptop will end up paying upgrading or removing malware, come on people, don't let the economy decide what you deserve.... Don't be SO cheap... Comparing plastic with Aluminum, please people....

Andre Da Costa says :
"Chips, I know you love Windows, I do too. :) Hey, how come you email Goblin, but you don't email me? Is that how you treat a friend?"
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First of all Andre, you did not answer the question about your Mac is better than Windows post. Is that your post, it appears to be. You should try a newbie friendly distro of Linux, you will be impressed with it since you are using Mac anyway.

Do I love Windows? Or linux for that matter? They are all Operating Systems, as such, they are tools, and we use the best tools for the jobs we need. Mostly we need a tool (OS) that works well on the internet, that tool is not Windows, with all its malware problems anymore. Of course it helps that GNU/Linux is Free, and that is more than just free to use.

As far as the email, I think not ever Andre. But if you want to contact me, do it through Goblin, if he agrees. He is a good sort, an honest person, who I think would forward your email, or twitter messages maybe if you ask him.

Nothing personal, actually I think you are an intelligent person who has a difficult, if not impossible job of defending Micro$oft products. But while you do it, you should in my opinion, try to be honest, as the means do not always justify the ends, no matter what they taught at the M$ Shill school. In some ways, I understand you more than anyone on this site, you are depending on that money and freebies that come either directly or more likely indirectly from 3rd party fronts from M$. Its a tough life sometimes putting bread and free computers from M$ on the table when one lives in a poor 3rd world country? That is about the only reason I cut you any slack at all, and have kept asking you to come clean and join the discussion in a more meaningful way. In a way more like Jess Meats, MS Employee, who I think does a great job posting here for her company. People like Jess, even though I seldom agree with her, she does on occasion even makes some points.

So tell us Andre, do you like Mac more than Windows now? The post I linked to say yes, and seems to be yours. Is it? Tell us about your relationship with M$? Join us in meaningful dialog.

Chips, I am not aware of writing such a post. We have had some discussion on ActiveWin though over the weekend about Microsoft's recent advertising strategy. I did write a post about the possible negatives of Microsoft's anytime upgrade strategy where Windows 7 Starter Edition is concerned.

Could you link me to the alleged post on AW you speak of?

Also, why are you so afraid to contact me? My email is right up there on my blog? No need to be using Goblin as a CISCO router.

Why settle for cheap black plastic when you can have some of that fine quality Apple plastic?

http://www.macnn.com/articles/09/04/08/apple.on.macbook.cracks/

While Microsoft is busy refighting the desktop wars, Apple, RIM and Google are fighting the portable wars.
Also, eventually Mike Dell is going to get a bit peeved with Microsoft advertising for HP.

Andre Da Costa the M$ shill say :

"Chips, I am not aware of writing such a post.

Could you link me to the alleged post on AW you speak of?

Also, why are you so afraid to contact me? My email is right up there on my blog? No need to be using Goblin as a CISCO router."
----------------------------------------------------
Andre,
First of all, why don't you just go back and read my posts and find the link. And if its not in this one, check Joe Wilcox preceding article.

And if for some reason, the link is now dead, because someone with administrator privileges on that site, like you, have deleted that post, accidentally, that you deny, then fear not, because I saved it with Ksnapshot, including the url showing, and also saved it with Firefox. I can zip it and send it by way of Goblin, if he permits.

You see how helpful we are, we are just trying to help you Andre. Think of it this way, I saved the file just for you. It might be better this way that it fells into the hands of people who will help you. Instead of those who maybe are sending you freebies, like free computers and stuff, now they might have some questions about why you are turning on them, in public. You know who there are, I sure wouldn't want to mention any names, like Micro$oft you know.

As far as the email address, its a question of trust. Lets just say, you have not earned my trust yet. Do you have a problem with Goblin? Is it because you don't like the British, I suspected that from one of your sock puppets attacks, that you dislike the British, but why?

@Chips

Interesting take you have on PC Gaming.

Funny how PC gaming has been dying a slow death for nearly 20 years. People keep saying it's dead... and yet a steady stream of games for the platform come out every year. I think WoW alone has over 8 million subscriptions world wide, and it's one of many MMORPG's. Perennial favorites like Starcraft II and Diablo 3 are also in the works from blizzard. I'm picking up the new Batman game tomorrow.

As for the games being not that great? That's your opinion.

Not one shared by the dozens of guys I get together with for Lan parties either.

I'm having a blast with PC gaming. For me it's the best platform to play on. As for replyability I've been playing WoW since it was released. I've played through oblivion, fallout 3, bioshock, and halflife 2 several times. I still play Starcraft and it was released wayyyyyyy back. If anything the only problem I have is too many great games and no time to play them all.

One thing you're right about though. Most Gamers do fix their own boxes. In fact most of us build them.

Quote Shilo "I think WoW alone has over 8 million "
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Its 11 million actually, with the average user logging on for approximately 3.27 hours per day.
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Quote Shilo "Funny how PC gaming has been dying a slow death for nearly 20 years. People keep saying it's dead... and yet a steady stream of games for the platform come out every year."
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I think PC gaming has only started to die with the release of viable console alternatives. PC Gaming is not dead, but a combination of people not wanting to constantly upgrade or worrying about patches/workarounds for hardware compat, make consoles are more viable alternative for them.
Look at the sales of consoles, look at the sales of console games, but more importantly (as I said before) look in your local computer stockist.
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But thats not what is really killing PC gaming (since like you there are many who enjoy gaming on the PC) whats killing the PC gaming scene is the global piracy problem. Its not rocket science to understand that the average user will be able to get hold of and run a pirate PC game easier than chipping their console and getting hold of copies for that.
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I think things like WoW will always exist on the PC since they require numerous controls and their environments are condusive to a PC more than a console (IMO)
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Im pleased you mention Oblivion because that is a very good example of why consoles are getting more popular. Remember the issues with getting it to work on a PC? Remember the forums flooded with issues? For a console user it was a case of stick the disk in and play. From the experiences documented on the net the PC was a hit and miss affair at best.
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Im not a gamer, but I have a very keen interest in the entertainment market. A software house looking to release a piece of software (IMO) will consider the console version the "make or break" version since the potential is there to make so much more money and I see little in the way PC's are marketed to suggest that there is even an attempt to get gaming customers back from the consoles.

Chips email request:
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Quote Andre Da Costa "Also, why are you so afraid to contact me? My email is right up there on my blog? No need to be using Goblin as a CISCO router. "
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Id say from seeing you in action he does not trust you. I certainly dont either, but for the record would be more than happy to pass on any messages between the two of you.
I cant Twitter Andre, because after I started asking him difficult questions he blocked me (and didnt answer any of the questions)
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Andre, I dont really think it matters how sincere you try to be, if you told me Microsoft made Windows, I would check it on Google first.

I'm an 'everything' user and I'm constantly amazed at how polarizing the religious dogma (oh wait), I mean political discussion (oh wait again), are we talking about OSes here?!?! WTF!?!

I can understand people getting into shouting matches over the pro-choice/pro-life debate, evolution/creationism, republican/democrat (although that last one not so much)... but we're talking about a TOOL here. I have many machines and support many others that are running at least 4 flavors of MS OSes, 2 flavors of Mac OSes, and I can't even count the variants of *nix I've got running around my house and work and clients.

EVERY operating system has flaws, EVERY OS has viruses and malware written for it - the difference is largely in the users. In over 20 years of using MS OSes I've never (yes, I'm serious when I say that - repeat NEVER) had a single virus infection on a machine that I exclusively used or controlled access to completely. I've cleaned THOUSANDS off of other system however - and I'm definitely not a fan or how hard MS makes it to secure a system properly.

In my experience OSX is definitely superior to Vista, and even Win7 (although MS is trying at least). However, I'd trade any of them in most cases for even the most 'candyassed' *nix distro (thinking Ubuntu or OpenSuSE). The problem is that not every tool is equal for the task.

A brief example and I'm done (having wasted too much time already):

I have a very, very nice table saw that I use for cabinet work as a hobby (loudspeakers mostly). It's without a doubt one of the most expensive and accurate table saws available today. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of times when I grab my much cheaper (like less than the taxes paid on the first saw) jigsaw to make a rough scroll cut on something. Why? Because it's a better fit to the task.

Want a server or scientific modeling platform? - grab Unix/Linux
Want a machine for web browsing and basic (very basic at that) computing and media work? - Use OSX.
Want to use 90% of the custom business software in the world, play games with the absolute best graphics and framerates, or develop for any of the Fortune 500 companies - better get Windows.

My workstation - I run all 3 on one system - which is NOT Apple hardware, and I love it. However, I will easily agree that if you want someone with next to no experience to stay out of trouble on a computer - go with Apple. However, if part of their reason for getting a computer is to try to make money with it - then look elsewhere. Unless maybe that means 'scrapbooking' to them, in which case you're fine with the Mac.

Goblin and Chips,

I think both of you have lost all credibility simply because you go on blogs pretending to be me and use my identity to try and discredit the truth. Continue, but I must burst your bubble, its not working. People are asking serious questions, if this is how people act in the Linux movement, how could I think to work with such an OS? Think about support? A new Linux user would just be called stupid, a shill, liar, doubted told to go shove it. That's the policy by Chips and Goblin. The fact that they can't truly reveal who they are and simply generate the same obsolete and incompatible rhetoric, proves how much of sad story Linux has been for the past 17 years. People use Windows, they enjoy the security, compatibility, immersive experiences and richness of the community of fellow Windows users while vendors everywhere continue to make Windows the number 1 choice.

Chips, continue to tell lies, continue focus on making Linux a religion, continue in your frustrated malicious ways. Is helping your? No, its not, because Windows is now on 96% of Netbooks, with a total 98% of desktops, Vista is on over 200 million systems world wide. Chips, people have made their choice, Windows, it works, its just that simple.

@Goblin:
About the email, I doubt Andre will email you and ask for that file. He denies posting the Mac loving post on that site, but somehow, I think you have to have an account on that site to post. While I have no interest real interest in checking that out, I did notice that Andre denied the post and then asked for the link? So how could he be sure without going back and checking the link?

Paranoid, that is what I realize embodies the character of an individual named Chips B. Malroy. What are you so afraid of? You are the one making up the lies about me? Saying negatives about my country, pretending to be me and saying all sorts of irrelevant negative stuff that is of no use? You can't come to terms with Windows massive growth and endurance over the years as the number 1 choice by both consumers and businesses. You can't accept the fact that people love the richness, ease of use of Windows. The high level of compatibility, the fact that Linux is an ideology built on ideals that people see through and will continue to ignore as long as contemporary operating systems exist.

Goblin and Chips,

I think both of you have lost all credibility simply because you go on blogs pretending to be me and use my identity to try and discredit the truth. Continue, but I must burst your bubble, its not working. People are asking serious questions, if this is how people act in the Linux movement, how could I think to work with such an OS? Think about support? A new Linux user would just be called stupid, a shill, liar, doubted told to go shove it. That's the policy by Chips and Goblin. The fact that they can't truly reveal who they are and simply generate the same obsolete and incompatible rhetoric, proves how much of sad story Linux has been for the past 17 years. People use Windows, they enjoy the security, compatibility, immersive experiences and richness of the community of fellow Windows users while vendors everywhere continue to make Windows the number 1 choice.

Chips, continue to tell lies, continue focus on making Linux a religion, continue in your frustrated malicious ways. Is helping your? No, its not, because Windows is now on 96% of Netbooks, with a total 98% of desktops, Vista is on over 200 million systems world wide. Chips, people have made their choice, Windows, it works, its just that simple.

Andre Da Costa the M$ shill who uses Mac OS X says:

"Goblin and Chips,
I think both of you have lost all credibility simply because you go on blogs pretending to be me and use my identity to try and discredit the truth."
----------------------------------------------------
Those be hard words, Andre. I seldom post much other than on eweek, unlike you. I will tell you I did not blog as you, but I have reason to believe that those are your posts. You have had months now, to refute them, been repeatedly asked by how many people how many times? And nothing till now? And then there is the website itself about the free HP/M$ desktop computer than you got, that cannot be anyone here that did that. You were asked about that too. Very much doubt that Goblin did it either, or needs to bother to disclaim it as its so far fetched. I would say why did you choice Mac OS X instead of linux? It would seem that if a linux user (as u now claim) wanted to frame you, wouldn't they make you a Linux user instead of a Mac user?

Or course if the gullible buy into your being frame story, then I sure you have insulted many many Mac users as well, as you troll those sites as well for M$. Even Apple Watch you troll. You have created a lot of unhappy people all over the internet that you have insulted Andre. So while they are many that might want to do that to you, it stills leave that HP/M$ computer and the fact that you have never denied anything when repeatedly asked. No I think you and your sock puppets are not going be very effective here anymore.

Again Andre you are a liar. I have never impersonated you nor would I want to, you do a far better job of discrediting yourself than any imposter could.
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Quote Andre "I think both of you have lost all credibility simply because you go on blogs pretending to be me and use my identity to try and discredit the truth."
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What blogs/pages do you mean? I only quote your twitter, your blog and your posts here. What pages do you mean? I anyone is impersonating you (which has happened to many here including Joe) then its not doing you much damage because Ive never refers to any.
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Quote "People are asking serious questions, if this is how people act in the Linux movement"
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Liar, no they are not. Ive recieved emails from both Neowin and Windowsobserver readers/members that want to know more about your dodgy tactics and the allegations about Microsoft.
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Give us a link where these people are asking questions.
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Andre, why is it I can have a sensible conversation with the owner of Windows7themes or WIndowsobserver etc but not you? Id love to hear your explanation.
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LOL - Quote Andre "The fact that they can't truly reveal who they are and simply generate the same obsolete and incompatible rhetoric"
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I use the Goblin for the reasons I have already stated. I could of given myself a fake name and nobody would be any wiser. What about all your convenient foul mouthed sock puppets that turn up to promote you and your opinions? All those new users who only appear when you post? If people want to see for themselves they just need to go back and look.
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Andre thanks, you have given some great comments, I think an article is in order with links here so people can decide themselves if you are a liar or not.

Apple Fanboys, one word for you: RUN

@Goblin :

Remember the people who had trouble getting oblivion to work?
___________________

I remember inserting a DVD installing the game and then playing it at higher resolution and detail than any Console can even approach.

Same thing with Oblivion and other games that are multi platform. The PC version play better, and looks better. Besides those GamePads are no match for Keyboard/Mouse.

Consoles don't compare favorably to PC's in gaming power. Not for those of us who accept nothing but the best in performance. They'll always be that niche and as long as theres a market someone will supply it. Kinda like crack. Looking at the list of upcoming games coming to PC this year alone I'm happy to say I don't feel the least bit threatened by consoles.

Quote "I remember inserting a DVD installing the game and then playing it at higher resolution and detail than any Console can even approach."
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You were luckly, check out the press, the patches and the numerous complaints and issues the games had.
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Quote "The PC version play better, and looks better. Besides those GamePads are no match for Keyboard/Mouse."
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Id tend to agree, a highspec PC is going to have an advantage running the game over a console version and the gamepad issue is correct aswel, that doesnt change the fact that the consumer and sales figures for console gaming show (IMO) that people (for whatever reason) are turning to consoles for their entertainment fix.
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Quote "Consoles don't compare favorably to PC's in gaming power. Not for those of us who accept nothing but the best in performance. "
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Again true, but are you telling me that the number of users with this ethos is growing, or do you agree with me that (rightly or wrongly) the console market is eroding the PC one, and many of the game playing public simply cant afford to keep upgrading their machines?
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Quote "Looking at the list of upcoming games coming to PC this year alone I'm happy to say I don't feel the least bit threatened by consoles."
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and nor should you. Theres no suggestion that overnight PC dev will stop. What you've got is a slow decline that IMO started when the PS2 was released. Just for your info thought, the Jaguar had a very impressive lineup of forthcoming games, and that crashed and burned completely before they even got 100 titles onto the shelves.
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In the middle of a recession and the ease/frequency cracks are released have you ever even looked at the scale in which piracy is rife on the BT protocol in particular? PC gamings "life" aside, one look at the amount of people infringing copyright suggests to me that even the PC gamers (who champion their machines) are not prepared to pay for software in many many cases. Wheres the profit for the firm there?

@Goblin

Piracy isn't new. It didn't start with this rescession, and it won't end when it's over.

The Wolverine movie was leaked before it even hit Theaters. I guess Hollywood should pack it in.

Bit torrents haven't killed PC's gaming. Ludricrous protection DRM hasn't done it in, and services like Steam on stardock's gaming portal will soon make piracy much harder.

Despite your doomsaying I will continue to PC game until they stop making them.

Then I'll quit gaming (after I play through the dozens of titles that will still be available that are still compatible) and still be using Windows when it's all said and done. Afterall I don't just play in it, I work in it. I communicate with it. And recently I've begun to develop SQL Databases in it. Getting pretty good at that sort of thing too.

Oh and by the way dude.

The Jaguar sucked from the day they released it until the day it was laughed off of store shelves. So I don't get your point. I also remember people saying that the last wave of consoles.... PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox, were the end of PC gaming.

Nope.... still here.

In 2005 Xbox360, PS3, and Wii would kill PC gaming.

Nope.... still here.

Now there's a new system coming out that might upset the whole apple cart and crush the consoles "on Live". It'll siphon off some PC gamers too most likely. But when the smoke clears PC gaming will still be around. I've been hearing predictions of it's demise since before I picked up my first PC game Warcraft 2. But here it is, Still here with great games forcast into 2010. With great developers like Blizzard, Valve and Bethesda developing games for the platform I think I'll be PC gaming until I have to quit because of arthritis.

Quote "The Jaguar sucked from the day they released it until the day it was laughed off of store shelves. So I don't get your point."
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But youve just made it. Although Ill challenge your rather uninformed "sucked" remark (Ill also ignore the DUDE, which I find rather rude) Tempest (one of its release titles had no issues, and the Jaguar had high hopes from pre to release) what killed the Jaguar (IMO) was when its flagship title hit the shelves (Alien V Predator) and it turned out to be a buggy and unpolished title.
The consoles hardware was impressive for the time, and just like the Archimedes in the time of the ST/A500 wars, if it had been better marketed and its titles better managed, it would have wiped the floor purely on specs alone.
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My point was that the Jaguar had a lovely list of planned releases, if as you say it was rubbished even before release, then that further adds worth to the point I was implying, that you cant judge the life of a platform on purely a release list.
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Quote "In 2005 Xbox360, PS3, and Wii would kill PC gaming."
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Consoles themselves are far more disposable per say than the PC platform, since the home computer is really just PC then theres always going to be a PC in the home whilst Xbox gets replaced with 360 etc etc. Whilst PC's get thrown out or upgraded, the platform remains the same.
As I say, the market exists because a/pcs are commonplace in the home and b/because there are people like yourself who want to play games on it.
What I was saying was that Consoles are now being looked at as the gaming solution for people who dont want to upgrade their machines or deal with issues surrounding compat/conflicts.
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If you want to argue the case please first look at the market figures. You can claim all you want, but the PC as a gaming platform is not on the increase and this is even more relevant now. You just have to look at PC marketing campaigns to see whilst games may get a mention, in the majority of cases they are not used to push the machine as its sole selling point.
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Ask yourself which is more profitable, GTA on the 360 or GTA on the PC? I dont think its a difficult one. Software houses like any other company are here to make money. I suggest the PC platform gaming days are numbered, and regardless of if Im right or wrong, it really doesnt matter, as Im simply not interested enough in gaming for it to have an effect on me.
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I have a very recent build rig which is more than capable of playing the latest games (which I dont) I have only a Linux OS and apart from a now declining interest in WoW through Wine, that is my only concession to the PC gaming world. We have a WII that the kids adore and a 360 collecting dust.
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I think the next generation of gamers are mostly console users (rightly or wrongly) and in my experience I am seeing little evidence of your 12-18 range in shops in the PC section. Id suggest this age group is a massive market for any software house, 12-18yr olds may not have the money for expensive PCs and upgrades and thats why I believe they find the consoles a better choice and why software houses consider the console version of their game the "make or break" version.

Finally, Quote "Blizzard, Valve and Bethesda developing games for the platform"
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Yes and for the consoles aswell. The difference being a console user will not have to worry about hardware conflicts, patches or simply their machine not having high enough specs to play it.

Where I'm from "Dude" isn't an insult.

I mostly stopped reading after the jaguar point after being called "uninformed". Because obviously you're in the mood for a fight "Dude" and I don't have the time or patience to engage in yet another pointless argument as neither of us is likely to convince the other.

Besides I've had this argument for 15 years of PC gaming dying out.

My final points.... The Jaguar blew chunks. I'm not uninformed about that. In the USA most gamers laughed at the thing in derision. It was largely forgotten before it's first year in circulation. It was the butt of jokes in the US and Japan. Nintendo and Sega owned the market at that point.
Still don't know why you brought that crap system up in relation to PC's. It's like comparing a BMW to a Yugo.... Yugo what? That's right most people never heard of it.

You seem to think that the end of gaming on the PC will be the end of the PC as a computing platform, and at the same time you posit that it's already in freefall yet Windows still holds the lions share on installation base.

Tell you what, you have a toast to the end of PC gaming, and I'll just keep right on gaming while waiting for a slew of great games to be released this year, and announced for next year.

Quote "Where I'm from "Dude" isn't an insult. "
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I didnt say it was an insult, I said it was rude. If you dont consider it impolite to address an adult who is not known to you as "dude" then thats a difference in opinion.
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and talking of opinion: Quote "I mostly stopped reading after the jaguar point after being called "uninformed". Because obviously you're in the mood for a fight "Dude" and I don't have the time or patience to engage in yet another pointless argument as neither of us is likely to convince the other."
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I wasnt aware I was having the discussion with you. I could have called the statement about the Jaguar, wrong, ignorant or just plain "made up". I used the term uninformed since it was, thats not an ansult its simply a statement on my opinion.
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Quote "The Jaguar blew chunks." - Very good description, I can see you really do have insider knowledge.
The question wasnt about if the Jag was a hit or not, it clearly wasnt. The jaguar did though have the best specs of the consoles at the time unless you are trying to say that the 68000 Motorola of the Megadrive was better? LOL. The reason the Jag failed was because of bad titles and poor sales. Not specs. The Jag was used to make the point that whilst PC gaming offers more advanced versions of games than consoles, its all really academic if software houses can make more from Console titles and more people own consoles.
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Quote "You seem to think that the end of gaming on the PC will be the end of the PC as a computing platform,"
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No I dont, dont tell lies. What I said was the PC gaming scene will continue to decline as more people select a console solution for their home gaming interests.
The PC wont change, but the home PC (IMO) is more in the main considered the productivity unit in the home, not the gaming platform. The sales figures say so, the shops say so and if you look to the new generation of gamers you will see they think so too.
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Quote "Tell you what, you have a toast to the end of PC gaming, and I'll just keep right on gaming while waiting for a slew of great games to be released this year, and announced for next year."
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It matters not to me, dont be silly. So Nknow, presuming you are a different user to Shiloh, we now have you and your bad language posts (previous threads) admitting to being a gamer, CC.Torment and their potty mouth being a gamer, and Shiloh the gamer. Whats with the game theme recently?
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Could it be that you agree with my comment of "The last bastion of salvation for the Windows platform (IMO) is games"?
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No, more likely you a here to make pointless challenges to me since youve offered nothing to counter my post to Shiloh. All youve done is said I was starting a fight, said you didnt really read my post and then go on with silly remarks likes "blows chunks" if you are going to respond can we at least do it sensibly.
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Quote "Besides I've had this argument for 15 years of PC gaming dying out."
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You havent had it with me, and I havent ever said that. To make it simple: The potential for better quality games does not ensure the continued success of a platform. (Hence the Jag example)
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Just sit and think about your argument for a second.
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Why is the WII the most popular out of the three consoles? It has the lowest spec, yet more people want it. What do you think will last longer, Nintendo's offering or the 360?
Look at the PSP, far better spec'd than the DS, but what are people buying, and what platforms games are selling out in the shops? See why you argument about PC gaming is baseless? The fact that it CAN produce better games does not ensure its survival, sales do. Since you cant argue that the biggest money maker is Console gaming, that is the whole crux of what Ive been trying to say.
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Id also suggest that you check which handle you are using before answering me. Read your post again, you sound like Shiloh but are answering as if you were Shiloh.
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I put it to you that since its a little coincidental that we've got three gamers all posting at the same time, two with a potty mouth, I believe you are all the same person. Certainly Id like to put money on you "Nknow" and "CC.Torment" being the same person. Who's next? Michael Dees? M.Dees?
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I hope whoever you are, my repeated clarification of my point has now informed you as to my opinion.

@CLUMP et al

you seem to forget a cardinal rule in order to fuel your feud with the other tards posting here:

M$ and apple are filling market gaps. they provide different products to fulfill different needs and/or appeal to different people/companies. They also rely on each other's existence in order to keep the market "fair" (i.e. they always have at least 1 major competitor).

Its not about apple, M$, Linux etc. Its about the choice consumers/users have. NONE of them is better or worse than any other. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. So you, as the user, can have the benefit of choice.

If you feel like you made the wrong choice, move on to the next one. If you still have the need to rant on the net, then talk about something with substance on an intellectual level rather than finding videos off youtube and web posts to support redundant arguments.

Perhaps the source of your angst lies elsewhere in which case i would suggest professional help.

Or maybe (and im shooting in the dark here - lol) you just need to use the shut down function on your o.s. and go outside more often.

Quote "Its not about apple, M$, Linux etc. Its about the choice consumers/users have. NONE of them is better or worse than any other. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. So you, as the user, can have the benefit of choice."
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I couldnt agree more.
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Quote "Or maybe (and im shooting in the dark here - lol) you just need to use the shut down function on your o.s. and go outside more often."
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And probably a comment that is valid for many people here (myself included)

I can only hope. Maybe this puts things into perspective?

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/operating_systems_dont_matter.html

It kinda proves the point of the argument both for OSes and the hardware they run on: we choose our toothpaste based on it's benefits, not the ingredients it contains (i.e. we chooose our OS/hardware empirically, based on the applications/functionality we need to have rather than the asininity of taking sides)

I think youre 100% correct, however when people seek to distort the truth with incorrect facts about alternatives, then its not fair on the user who is seeking to make an informed choice. Thats why I post and why I believe the other regulars here do aswell.
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Let me give a recent example of allegations made:
http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-hired-lawyers-vs-foss/
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If the internet presented all options on a "level playing field" (IMO) then I wouldnt have an issue and people will truly be making decisions on the basis of what is right for them.