Joe, there is something here that I do not see. You have two tables here, one you take you data from for the article, and say that M$ is doing better in search. The other table however, seems to imply that Google gained at a rate 4x that of M$? That table titled Share of Web Searches.

www.distrowatch.com download and try a free linux live cd now, and save yourself from the Windows 7 upgrade cycle costs. The next upgrade cycle in 2 to 3 years beyond Windows 7, may not even be based on windows at all, and may require all new software. Even Seven will break some software.

Confusing to me too. What's the difference between a web search and search query? Is the difference just due to rounding error?

It is basically 2 ways of representing the same data.

The first chart is percentage of total searches, the second is number of searches, the fact that Microsoft shows a bigger gain in the number of searches is just a trick of maths because they have a low starting point. The entire search market has grown.

Google actually grew ahead of the market, that's why the first chart shows them with 0.4% growth.

No one in this planet will be able to interpret the two charts shown by Joe even himself.

May be he cut-and-pay from somewhere without digesting them .

By the way , cut-and-pay is a feature in Microsoft Windows 7 that is currently used by Joe although he keeps telling us Windows sucks

I like the fat client, it is rich and independant of the server side. Just like i like fat women, they are independant of the thin slices. Ive always liked fat women. ive had some good fat women as well.

I have to agree with Chips. Market growth was aprox 1.2 B (sum of Number of Searches March vs February). Of that 1.2 B Google captures 0.8 B while Microsoft captured 0.2 B

0.8 B is 66% of 1.2 B. That means Google is growing faster than its current market share. 0.2% is 16% of 1.2 B so Microsoft is catching up at twice the pace of its current market share. Which is a very good thing. But unless they have some viral marketing scheme in place that makes that growth keep growing with growth it looks like it will settle around 12% to 16% (assuming they don't loose any gained grown).

A thing I'd like to see Joe is how much is this costing each company and how much of that investment is becoming profit.

I think the site name is www.live.com

When people start to realize what an incredible but ominous thing Google has done, they might be wary of putting their every search through Google.

There's a book out now called Googling Security. While it doesn't cover the privacy improvements in Microsoft's IE8 such as InPrivate browsing which can protect against some of Google imbeds, it is an excellent read on what Google is up to and its overbearing knowledge about you through your searches, your IP address, and how it cross links through the searches of your friends family and business associates. And how all the embedding they do makes them like the all-seeing-eye of illuminati fame. Well, read the book.

Some people might want to spread their seaches over more engines.

If Google ever turned evil, it would be ridiculously easy to avoid them. If Microsoft ever made a good search engine/analytics package then people could switch tomorrow.

Personally I worry more about Microsoft getting a stranglehold on the internet. They tried to do it before with MSN. Personally I want an open internet rather than a closed Microsoft one that requires a license.

Clump, are you working for Privacy International these days?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/pda/2009/mar/25/google-street-view-privacy

If? They already have gotten dissenters arrested in China by bending to the will of the regime there. And in India, be careful not to post anything that offends one of their many gods because hey, Google will be there to help the government jail you:

[Google Assists Arrest of Indian Dissenter]
http://www.insidetech.com/news/articles/2125-google-assists-arrest-of-indian-dissenter

It's not just Google of course, Yahoo! and even Microsoft have been too cooperative. Microsoft a little less though, though. I think the people at Microsoft find it more distasteful than those at Google as Microsoft has shown more resistence to the likes of Hu Jintao.

Instead of dismissing my point, you might read Googling Security - it's pretty interesting.

And if you want "open" then you would never use Google because their algorithms, databases and systems are c*l*o*s*e*d

But, hey, they run linux.

Privacy is a pet concern of mine. I've learned how to set up certificate services for s/mime, learned PGP, and read books and articles on privacy and encryption. I'm by no means knowledgeable on the subject and do not pretend to be, but there are some simple things one can do to be a little more private in a world of logging. One is a hosts file :o)

Any company which has a court order to reveal information must give up that information, it does not matter if it upsets some people.

Show me one company that has defied a court order in a country that they do business in. Telling stories about how Google/Yahoo help foreign governments is just propaganda.

Microsoft is well known to have special hooks into Windows which can be used for 'forensics', this has probably caused more privacy violations than anything but it is not reported by 'Privacy International'.

If you are so into privacy, I wonder why you use Windows, you can never be assured what is going on in there, can you?

Only if the company is spineless when it come to human rights.

Microsoft Windows souce code has been reviewed by third parties and there are no specious hooks and nor any backdoors.

But that's a red herring because a corporation can choose to cooperate and betray people their of basic rights or choose a higher road. Microsoft has been one of the more feisty of the big companies when dealing with Communist gov'ts. Google and Yahoo!, well, rather spineless IMHO.

Don't let your hatred of Microsoft be blinders for you. We [should] all love free speech here.

@Clump

"When people start to realize what an incredible but ominous thing Google has done, they might be wary of putting their every search through Google."

Let's take a closer look at your FUD. Now as a disclaimer, I think you're right about the possible and actual damage caused by Googling. But I think you're over reacting.

Say I have to type a document. Say an essay or something. Maybe on the topic of Shiva. I Google some stuff. Google has knowledge of this when I search, but Windows has knowledge of this as a search and type and edit and finish the document. I could bounce my search from an oversea proxy (even encrypted via a SSH tunnel) and Google wouldn't know I'm in India, but Microsoft Windows would (it handles my keystrokes and the network traffic, remember?).

Even considering Microsoft as heavenly sent, I think Google's servers are safer than my Windows install. So while Google might make misuse of the info I highly doubt someone external will walk in and steal stuff. At least not as easily as on a Windows laptop or desktop. A simple trojan or virus can not only expose my search history, but all the installed software and documents (personal, audio, video etc) which Google didn't know about.

So before we go trashing Google's practices in other countries we must consider:

a) Local law over there is different and applicable within the countries jurisdiction.(would you allow Google or any other search or messaging system to hide information on pedopheliac activity?)

b) Commercial relationships. How much Microsoft code is produced in India? Dell call centers? XBox Live call centers? We are quick to give these companies our hard earned money and they give Americans the boot to save a buck. Mhhh???

I understand your position and agree with it to an extent. But lets try to get the big picture before posting something as polarized as that.

Clump

I'll answer a quote with another quote

"Microsoft Windows souce code has been reviewed by third parties and there are no specious hooks and nor any backdoors.", Clump @ MicrosoftWatch

----------------------

"Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.", The Architect @ Matrix

Backdoors also include 'unintentional' bugs. So by saying that all the code has been reviewed by (non-independent) people means that those people found every single bug (intentional or not) which can be used to compromise the system. Backdoors do not have variables named $backdoor and comments describing how they work. Even if Microsoft did not sanction them, they could have been put in by ex-employees or FBI plants.

Do you really believe these mystery people found and fixed all of the bugs in Windows?

Well, think about all that Google possibly could know. If Microsoft were monitoring each and every keystoke of its connected customers, people would clue in. All one would need is to analyse a bit of traffic. Clearly it is not happening.

But Google. Few search any other way. Next - some already do - next people will be storing their word processor and business documents on Google servers with all these Google apps Google wants everyone to use. Google can figure out where you are simply by taking note of where you visit when you launch Google Earth - almost everyone looks up their own house - some it is the first place they look up.

Then how about all those Youtube videos on all those blogs - Google knows what sites you visit without your even using their search engine.

And, hey, every webmaster wants to make a buck - enter Google's Ad sense program - each little Google embed reporting right back to Google while you surf.

And now Google is pushing its own browser. How sweet. No InPrivate browsing, of course, but they do have Incognito. Using Icognito mode, they say no record is left on *your* computer - but make no mention of what records are left on Google servers. If they told you, you wouldn't use it.

And Google Analytics .. hmm .. Google is helping itself to some more info on you while it is helping you know how your website traffic is doing - all recorded forever on Google servers. And .. it gets worse, but I won't go on. Read the book. It's very interesting.

Clump, I've seen people with trojans and keyloggers installed and they didn't have a clue. Then you must also consider ISPs. Even if Google and Microsoft were heavenly sent the ISP could steal squeal on you. Are your Live Searches done over HTTPS?

P.S. RedHat linux, code which gets only so much review and attention, releases patches for critical vulnerabilities [i.e. ways in/compromise] almost on a regular basis. The security fixes on the kernel and main system for a single verion of RHL is as long as my arm.

And even though the code is "open source", the code is thick, the lines are many, how do you know a RH engineer(s) doesn't slip a little unmarked backdoor in? You don't. And should it be discovered it gets counted as a bug.

"Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.", The Architect @ Matrix

'Have a nice day.

There are 2 vital points missing from your Google is evil theory.

1. Once they have all this information, what will they do with it? How will that be detrimental to me?
2. How will they stop everyone just stopping using their systems? This would cut off the supply of valuable data.

Nobody questions that they index a lot of data, but their aim is "organize the world's information". Where is the bad in that? People know their searches/documents are being used to target ads, but the benefit outweighs the risk. Why should I care if Google knows where I live? Are they going to come around and burn it down?

@Jerry

You make a good point about ISPs. Currently, it seems ISPs are not amalgamating information in the way Google is doing. There are some pretty big ISP companies with a lot of horsepower for sure, but Google is way out doing them. You should read that guy's book - its fascinating.

Anyway, to your other point:

There's key logger software for all these systems, linux, Windows, osx. Those who install it be they a jealous spouse, an nosey IT dept administration or whoever aren't likely going to announce it.

Now, when it comes to stuff off the 'Net. Anyone who has that stuff [from the Net] on their systems has either turned off patching, or, if they look back and think about it, at some point in time said "OK" to some pawrn hotvideo.mpg.exe ActiveX control.

Nobody denies that there are bugs in open source software, just that your claim was complete rubbish.

I will always claim that a Linux is more secure because it does not do stupid things like leaving RPC servers listening on the internet interface for all desktops.

Clump, there's a key difference between the RedHat case you mention and the Google/Microsoft case. In the case of Google or Microsoft the government contact them demanding the information. Since Google holds the info it must hand it over according to the court request. So will Microsoft.

More so if we get to specifics and you happen to use Windows (which you do). A government can enter your computer without your consent. Because all it has to do is issue a request to Microsoft. And because the OS on your computer belongs to Microsoft and not you (remember you only have a license to use) they can see what you're doing on Microsoft property. Technically they're not breeching your property, because it really isn't.

Now if you booted on Linux that's another story. Even with commercial version you as a user still own the majority (and critical components) of the OS.

What is your full name billybob? No not your handle here, the full name on your birth certificate. And what is your street address? While you're at it, age please, and your three hundred and fifty last search terms - yes all of them .. no, how about all the searches you've ever done on Google - cough em up - I'm sure.

How is that detrimental to you? You tell me. You have nothing you might want to keep private, eh? [sarasm] I'm sure Google has only your interests at heart. [/sarcasm]

Google Incorporated Mega-Corp is not just looking at your searches. Duh. They are amalgamating everything they can about you. And if you store any documents on their servers - they can go through those too.

Hey, what about Picasa - they got your face from a picture a friend uploaded - face recognition crossed referenced with searches you make, searches others make about you, the websites you visit with Ad Sense embedded or Youtube emebedded. If they want your exact address - well what did you look up with Google Earth - your own house I bet. And so on [and it gets worse].

So I think it is a good question. Just what are they doing with all that information and why are they storing it all and why are they storing it all indefinitely? Knowledge is power.

The book is called Googling Security. The author makes some interesting points.

Clump=sock puppet=Andre Da Costa=M$ Shill
Nobody in their right mind is going trust M$ more than Google. While niether is perfect, M$ record on trust is beyond bad.

Microsoft extends Red-Ring-of-Death cover to fresh Xbox fault E74 - a failure in any language

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/14/microsoft_xbox_360_e74_error_warranty/

"Just as Microsoft had recovered from the Xbox 360's notorious "Red Ring of Death" fiasco another big hardware error has begun slaughtering its boxes.The Xbox 360 "E74 error" has become enough of a problem that Microsoft is now covering it under the console's extended three-year warranty reserved for RRoD failures.After investigating the issue, we have determined that the E74 error message can indicate the general hardware failure that is associated with three flashing red lights error on the console."
--------------------------------------------------
So, its seems the RROD error is the E74 error, and that M$ is still turning out junk with this same problem, after how long??? It also tells people how long you can expect to be able to use your Xbox360, 3 years. And since M$ is coming out with new OS every 2 to 3 years, that should tell you how long M$ expects it also to last. Planed obsolescence anyone?

Your doomsday scenario is that Google will reveal all of my private data (which they do not have because I do not put it on the internet) to people that I know. That isn't very likely at all as far as I am concerned. Besides, the day they do that is the day they lose 90% of the search market and all their valuable data.

Does the author of this book you keep promoting have any better points that are not just speculation and sensationalism? Oh, maybe he makes good sales for sensationalism?

MS WINDOWS IS A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY

http://www.dailypress.com/features/dp-life_rau_0414apr14,0,7088171.story

"All of these security holes exist because of one thing: Microsoft Windows

The proprietary code flaws in Windows that create these security holes have been known for at least a decade, but still, almost every business, every government agency, every branch of the military, and the vast majority of individual Americans, continue to use this phenomenally inferior operating system for their day-to-day work.

Malware can be spread through any operating system, but with few exceptions it only functions in Windows. Don't believe me? Go to the Norton Security Center and tell me how many viruses, worms, or other types of malware function on other operating systems."

Stealthy Rootkit Slides Further Under the Radar

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/163168/stealthy_rootkit_slides_further_under_the_radar.html

"Thousands of Web sites have been rigged to deliver a powerful piece of malicious software that many security products may be unprepared to handle.

The malicious software is a new variant of Mebroot, a program known as a "rootkit" for the stealthy way it hides deep in the Windows operating system,

An earlier version of Mebroot, which is what Symantec named it, first appeared around December 2007 and used a well-known technique to stay hidden. It infects a computer's Master Boot Record (MBR). It's the first code a computer looks for when booting the operating system after the BIOS runs.

If the MBR is under a hacker's control, so is the entire computer and any data that's on it or transmitted via the Internet

Since Mebroot appeared, security vendors have refined their software to detect it. But the latest version uses much more sophisticated techniques to stay hidden, Erasmus said."

I am not sure about that ,maybe somebody could explain it to me,I noticed that Hotmail give you only 3/4 of the PC screen, the other 1/4 is taken over by MS advertising space. Obviously that prevents you from reading the email properly, to do that (read your emails) you have to click the yellow bar above, then the screen goes back to normal (4/4).

Why does MS do that?, why does MS bother its users so? who benefited from these (millions) false clicks? (maybe MS search?)
-----------------

I forgot mentioned that is each time, each email (10 email=10 clicks)

------
declaimer:
I use googlemail mainly and use Yahoo! too.

@Marco:
That does sound like it could be used as another M$ scam to distort the figures. That way M$ can charge more to advertisers, by showing a larger share than it actually has. Just like the figures at Net Apps are skewed.

@billybob

"..doomsday scenario is that Google will reveal all of my private data.."

The whole point is that is not the doomsday scenario at all, and that you think it is exposes your naivete. You really should give that book a read.

@Chips B Malroy

They can all be rooted, as a matter of fact 'root' is a UNIX term isn't it? So don't post like a dumbass when you are not.

To chips;
So it seems, but I would like if someone could confirm or deny it.

Clump, I still don't get the point. What is Google going to do? Tell my mom I googled porn? Tell my wife? I don't think I'm that important for someone to spend a Tomahawk on blowing up my house.

I'd be more worried about Windows crapping out on me yesterday than what I search. IRS, now that scares me.

You really have got to let it go. If you're doing nothing wrong what is there to be afraid of. So you Googled a little porn from home. I'm sure your boss did to. I don't think you'll loose your job over it and if you did you could probably sue them for more than you're worth anyway. So why worry.

I am not going to buy a book which sounds like complete crap. I read the reviews and the synopsis at Amazon and it sounds like rubbish to me. Unless there is some massive unheard of vulnerability then I am not that interested.

Most of the reviewers seem either very paranoid or they are saying the book is really only for the very paranoid. That seems about right.

If you wont go into what the doomsday scenario is then how am I supposed to know. Yeah Google might have their datacentres stolen, but again, that is unlikely. Just give a tip about what the big worry is please.

Well in any case, this is evidence of 'another M$ scam to distort the figures' (chips)

Clump, I usually park my car by a nicer one. Because all cars can be robbed. I can't absolutely stop all car theft, but I can make mine less attractive and harder to rob.

I try to apply the same policy with my computers. There isn't 100% security, but it is foolish to expose myself unnecessarily.

On the other hand it'd be your car, your computer and your bank account. So feel free to do as you please.

Hm. If you don't want to read it don't. But I'm not going to speculate on any possible doomsday scenarios. But why does Google need so many PhDs in psychological science working for them? 'Could be nothing.

@billybob

Who could steal Google's datacenters, they're too vast? They have most the entire WWW in RAM memory. They log and keep indefinitely every single search ever done through them and that's just the beginning.

Someone might buy them or aquire them though. I can't say "trust me" because you don't, but IMHO I thought the book raises a lot of important questions whether they apply to Google specifically or just the information age in general.

@Gerado

What this author is saying goes beyond the mundane issue of hackers grabbing hold of your bank account regradless if you run osx, freedos, linux or Windows.

I am only mentioning it because the issue of seach came up and he wrote quite a book on Google. They are up to a lot, and despite their cute-tee-poo name, they are a massive corporation. And yes, they are willing to hand over your name to the red communist gov't if that is the price of doing business in China. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.

If someone buys them then they would have the same problem as Google. If you do bad things with the data then you will lose your data source. Nobody is going to buy a multi billion dollar company and then throw it down the toilet.

Maybe there are a lot of questions that we face in the information age, but that does not mean that Google is evil or they can somehow exploit their share in web search.

There are plenty of people who can get better information than Google. Even someone who sees me in the street and follows me home can find out more information about me than Google. My ISP probably have an easier way to collect data which will be impossible for me to avoid. It is trivial to block Google Analytics and search.

If you believe everything you read in that book then you shouldn't use the internet at all.

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China

"A similar dilemma faces foreign content providers such as Yahoo!, AOL, Google and Skype who abide by PRC government wishes, including having internal content monitors, in order to be able to operate within mainland China. Also, in accordance with mainland Chinese laws, Microsoft began to censor the content of its blog service Windows Live Spaces, arguing continuing to provide Internet services is more beneficial to the Chinese.[52] Michael Anti, a Chinese journalist whose blog on Windows Live Spaces was removed by Microsoft, agreed that the Chinese are better off with Windows Live Spaces than without it.".............................

Also this:

blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/118510.asp

"Microsoft says it will make data from Live Search queries anonymous after 18 months, unless individual users want them to be stored longer. According to the company, the policy "will apply retroactively and worldwide, and will include permanently removing the entirety of the IP address and all other cross-session identifiers, such as cookie IDs and other machine identifiers, from the search terms."

In addition, Microsoft says it will give people the option of excluding themselves from behavioral ad targeting, which delivers ads based on a user's past online activities. In a separate announcement"....................

Does this sound like a Microsoft that is so much better than Clump's Google? I think not. Let me just stay with Google, as a Microsoft controlled internet will be 1984 as in the book.

U.S. Tech Firms Help Governments Censor Internet

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162781,00.html

"WASHINGTON — Free speech advocates are frustrated with a host of American companies they say have been collaborating with oppressive regimes in countries like China, Iran and Saudi Arabia, to help them filter and monitor the Internet activity of their citizens.

Big technology names like Microsoft, Yahoo! and Cisco Systems have been criticized roundly in recent years for providing foreign governments with the tools they need to crack down on Internet use, but critics say they have not been able to do much more than complain."

Clump, get a clue. Microsoft not Google is the evil one.

AOL apologizes for release of user search data

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1030_3-6102793.html

"The release of the search logs runs counter to a court ruling in March, when a federal judge rejected efforts by the Department of Justice to gain access to Google users' search logs. The court, however, determined the Justice Department could have limited access to Google's index of Web sites.

Google was the only search engine to fight the Justice Department, with Yahoo, Microsoft's MSN and AOL turning over their users' search data."

@The Far left Hand of God

LOL Thank you for the links. You obviously have a clue. I'm very busy this afternoon so cannot answer you point by point. When I feel I have to relax I will read the links.

So to sum my point up a short as possible: to think of the megacorp Google as entirely benevolent is entirely naive. Knowledge is power and Google wants every single bit of it.

There's an interesting book out on the subject of Google, it's titled "Googling Security". It raises a lot of quesitons about information, power, manipulation and privacy in the information age.

--

Clump, what the author of that book is trying to do is make money out of your and other's fears. If you're really so concerned about this I recommend you pull the plug on technology across the board. Cancel your credit cards and your debit cards. Otherwise they'll know what you're shopping for. Cancel your cable or satellite TV or they'll know what you're watching. Cancel your phone or they'll know who you call and what you say. Sell your car or those cameras on the streets will know were you drive to and who you visit. The list goes on and on and on....

So Microsoft U.S. Search Queries Rise in March by 0.1% from 8.2 to 8.3%. While Google's increase by 0.4%, and yet Microsoft beats Google, and gets this amazing writeup? Its a blimp on the data or something, next month most likely Microsoft will continue its slide into the grave. They might buy Yahoo and pull that one down with them. Google will bury Microsoft! Sorry, Steve, I just had to steal your line there. Throws chair.

@chips, smist, & billybob:

Doing the math, computing compound growth, if Microsoft, starting with 1.2 billion searches per month, maintains a compound month-to-month growth rate of 11% while Google, starting with 9.1 billion, maintains only 10%, Microsoft will break even with Google in 19 years (224 months). At these growth rates, each provider will process an eye-popping 17 quintillion (17,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 17e18) searches per month.

@The Far left hand of God

Google and Microsoft are simply responding to the European's requests. Yahoo! has outdone both of them as it will now scrub in 90 days. And there are search engines out there that promise they do not log IP addresses with search queries.

But this is a red herring because Google can carry on just fine with a 9 month lead on IP addresses. Their cookies last up to three years so absolutely most people get continually updated - they never reach the 9 month limit!

@The Far left hand of God

About the "U.S. Tech Firms Help Governments Censor Internet" story. I've read similar recently or at least in the past few months. It's a bit disheartening that any company in the democratic world would help these guys oppress the citizenry, but here they are doing it. I can only say shame on them for it, they are letting the dollars signs get in they way of uprightness. True, some of the technology is neutral and is used in the West more for blocking spam and viruses even though it can be used to block disent as well.

Microsoft used to be better about it and I remember them having a bit of friction with the oppressive communist government - which I admired some. I wish I could still admire them. But now it looks as if I might have to make a critical Youtube video.

It's good to shine a light on these behaviours. I'm thankful to have been able to read a book like "Googling Security" too.

About the "AOL apologizes for release of user search data" story.

Here you have Google fighting the justice dept. supposedly to protect the privacy of those who use Google. How noble.

But guess what, I'm a bit more cynical. Google is protecting its precious resouce and jealously guarding it. They have plans of domination, don't be hoodwinked. If you read Googling Security you might get the idea.

Clump spreads his MSFT agenda with falsehoods like:
"Microsoft used to be better about it and I remember them having a bit of friction with the oppressive communist government - which I admired some."..........................

Really, you have some links on that? I seem to remember Microsoft with Cisco hardware helping install "the great firewall of China." You know the filtering that made censorship so prevalant in Red China. The problem I had with your posts Clump is they are so clearly pro-microsoft that any reader here can see through you. Microsoft is clearly the worse offender when it comes to internet privacy. Here MSFT is just plain evil. And yes, while Google has done wrong and continues to do wrong on internet privacy, so does Microsoft. There is only one organization that does worse than Microsoft on internet privacy and censorship, and that is the governments of the world, especially the so called "free" democracies. But these gov's like the United Kingdom and the USA, are controlled by the corporations, not the people anymore. This is why things will not change for the short term, as companies like Microsoft has too much influence and control at what happens in the governments.

The gov's in the "free" world are clearly in the pockets of the big corporations (MSFT). So we cannot trust the gov's anymore to fix the problems as they just do the bidding of their masters, the corporations like MSFT.

Google, while it has done some wrong, and continues to do so, is at least the best hope we have of some sort of internet freedom down the road. That day will come when the money starts to dry up for Microsoft, and Google can surpass them on income, and therefore have more power than Microsoft in the governments on the so called "free" world. As much as Google has done some wrong, they may be our only hope.