Very clever.

it's not clever. it's a shameless imitation (and not as funny to be honest) of a parody someone else wrote that got linked on slashdot.

Paul wrote: "It's a shameless imitation (and not as funny to be honest) of a parody someone else wrote that got linked on slashdot."

I didn't see the one on Slashdot. How long ago and do you have a link?

Joe

Er... generally I agree with your ideas, this is not bad, but I think the analogy here is mistaken . It should have been more exact if you were talking about pets (e.g Vista is a cat, etc) that's because you can OWN a pet. I think that you WILL understand it.

@Marco: and you think you will OWN Vista? :-)

I think it's very clever, too. Extremely well done!

I'd like to see the Slashdot parody, as well.

I generally agree with your article, Joe. But unlike you, I won't be giving up my Mac. While I do enjoy using Vista, I find OS X more satisfying for my day-to-day computing activities.

And I can hardly wait for Leopard...

Joe
I also enjoyed very much your parody and have never seen the "slashdot" version myself.
Even if I did I still think to link up everything was well thought.
I particularly liked the fact that you have actually been using Vista and can now give your thoughts on it after having used it.
Good piece !

Joe , try this : http://www.jerrypournelle.com/

I enjoy Jerry 's vivid description on his encounter of software product.

The way you present is BORE ...

After tons of complaint and bashing against Windows Vista, now you start to really try the product.

Could we say that all your previous comments on Vista are baseless ?

Test before you comment next time , OK ? !

John wrote: "After tons of complaint and bashing against Windows Vista, now you start to really try the product. Could we say that all your previous comments on Vista are baseless ?"

John, I've been using Windows Vista since February 2006, with access to various CTPs and some builds in between. I have written mainly from experience, which may have been colored by the testing process. Vista was ugly with UAC popups and other annoyances or problems for a long time.

I've used Windows betas since version 95. Vista was the first version of Windows I had to wait until RC2 before comfortably using it in production. With its predecessors, I usually could go fulltime at Beta 2 and sometimes much sooner.

I did switch over fulltime Vista in October but sidelined the OS after the January consumer launch because of VPN incompatibility. But Vista continued as my secondary OS, until last week.

I always try to write from experience, which is why I've written so little about Windows Home Server. I haven't had chance to give the software a real go around.

Personally, I like Vista and have said so on this blog in the past. I vigorously defended Vista when one of my colleagues dissed it back in November.

What I think about Vista really is immaterial. Microsoft needed to do certain things to ensure Vista would be a success. Microsoft's effort fell short.

Still I am more hopeful about Vista. My sister had to buy a new laptop this week. She was ready to buy a XP PC, because she didn't want all the hassle. I recommended Vista instead. In October, she also bought a MacBook, at my recommendation. I couldn't comfortably recommend Vista back then, after many months of using it. She could have purchased a PC notebook and gotten an upgrade coupon for Vista. The MacBook got her an OS better than XP but with the option to install Vista (via Apple BootCamp) later on.

She's still having troubles, though. Her older Canon and HP printers won't work with Vista. No drivers. The point: The Microsoft ecosystem still hasn't caught up with Vista. But it will.

Joe

Esteemed Coditza:
Not my friend, I acknowledge that WE DO NOT own Vista (it was a reduction to absurd for a better understanding) besides , following the Joe's analogy (wrong) , Vista would be the Mata Hari of the SO . Now, what is wrong with Joe's analogy ?, a few things, among them, the biggest was provide Vista with the possibility of some humans characteristics, which in a human being would be (depend on the situation) excusable (e.g.: jealousy) and praiseworthy (in example: monogamy) but applied into a thing itself (SO we pay for but don't own) are detestable, irritant, disagreeable, and (in a moment of just irritation ) possibly dangerous for our poor hardware , and of course, there is more to be add, but I think this might be enough.

Joe, I like Vista too. However, I need to point out a few things:

1) While Vista is indeed based on the Server 2003 codebase, millions of lines of new code have been added to it. For all intents and purposes, this makes Vista an essentially new product, a "Version 1.0" product, from the perspective of software defects (ie, bugs).

2) It is immaterial that Vista's "Version 1.0" status is not as onerous as, say, Mac OS X's back in 2001. Vista is still a riskier play than sticking with XP for the time being (and waiting for SP1 or SP2).

3) The potential hassles of upgrading to Vista, based on "perceived benefits," are far greater than for buying a new iPod or swapping cell phones. It's true that most consumers are lured by product aesthetics, but this "perceived benefit" is too slight to offset early bugs, compatibility problems, and DRM. As a matter of fact, we have no idea what the long-term implications of DRM are. I submit that they won't be apparent until a year or so from now, once the digital content providers really start exploiting DRM.

Between my brother and I, we have three Vista PCs. Both of us have already encountered annoying bugs and driver problems. And it's only been three months since Vista was released!

(XP has the advantage of maturity. We haven't encountered any bugs since SP2.)

Think twice about "perceived benefits."

Joe,
That's funny! I like your style and agree with your assessment.

Cute. Vista does have its own ideas, doesn't it! It blue-screened in the first hour of use for me (with RTM code, so they can't blame a beta). I've recommended against it for our company for now, because there are just too many things that either don't work at all, or don't work properly. Even newish XP software is not immune. On the other hand, it runs stuff from the vintage 1992 Windows Entertainment Pack just fine!
I do like Vista, despite the glitches, but won't move to it for quite awhile.

I agree, this article's a hoot ... but I'm troubled because I thought new OS's were supposed to make computers and applications more accessible... Sure doesn't sound that way.
I've provided my personal IT support (and support for many others) since before CPM - on PC and Mac platforms both. I know (most of) the idiosyncrasies of both Tiger and XP.
And do I want to take time from my business to learn Vista? Not until I have to.

Very entertaining! This article nearly parodies my reactions to the OS's. I find Vista very intriguing and cute, with a bit of an attitude. But she is so enticing!
Tiger is much more bland, lacking personality. Tiger is the home-schooled model where Vista is the more worldly one.

Well Vista is not backward compatible with Symantec Corporate AV. I am not changing to Vista just for kicks. I had trouble just joining a Wi-Fi encrypted network the other day. I won't say it sucks because its too little time spent with it to pass judgment on it but i could wait a few months before M$ revamps it with some SP1. Until then, I will continue to use XP @ work and OS X @ my house. By the way, I LOVE my iMac and it does what I want it to do when I need it.

Hey, if you like Vista, use it. I personally find it a very poor OS, so quite frankly, I will be sticking with XP and, when it's really time to go hard core, Gentoo.

Robert - version 10.2 of Symantec AV CE is compatible with Vista. Since you have the Corporate Edition and assuming your maintenance is up to date you can go to their website and download the latest copy.

I've been using Symantec AntiVirus Corporate 10.2 for Vista over the past couple months without any problems. Even Symantec has stated on their website that they don't support any of the older versions on Vista.

While MS has expended a significant amount of effort on making Vista compatible with existing software and hardware, there will always be trade-offs. Let's not forget that it is also the responsibility of software and hardware vendors to make their products "future compatible" if they want to continue to have customers.

Cute. Too cute. Just like those terminally cute menus at "trendy" restaurants.

Sorry, Joe, but Vista just isn't ready for prime-time usage. There are too many driver problems, too many broken pieces of software, too large hardware requirements. And, as Richard noted above, the DRM questions are too scary.

I won't be ugrading until absolutely forced. Ask yourself, "Why did Dell bring back XP?" The answer to that unprecedented move is the key to Vista.

Vista will be the reason I move to Linux of some flavor or another.
We will stay with Xp for now. But Debian and Knoppix are both running on secondary machines for evaluation.

"Let's not forget that it is also the responsibility of software and hardware vendors to make their products "future compatible" if they want to continue to have customers."

Ummm, this is obviously troll talk. You can't write drivers for future operating systems. It doesn't work that way. The only reason an OS even releases with drivers is because the OS developer chooses to work with manufacturers before releasing the OS - divulging the driver models, code hooks, and other programming details critical to a successful driver. And those OS pieces CAN'T change without requiring a re-write of the driver.

The real reason that Vista lacks drivers is Microsoft's requirement that the drivers have to be QA'd by Microsoft. That process alone takes over a month and $2K a pop. I know because we investigated writing a couple of drivers.

So want to know who bears MOST of the responsibility for drivers in Vista? Microsoft.

Thanks for the SAV 10.2 update. But it makes you wonder how much software I have that I need to test. How about Netscreen VPN client? iseries access? HP director for those local inkyjet printers which give me tons of headaches. the list goes on and on. So let the others get the bluescreens first and when the SP1 comes up, then I'll waste some time on migrating a few. As long as windows feeds most of the IT trolls, apple will never be an option. Windows will always generate calls to the service desk. It's ridiculous how much time is wasted when "anti-malware" tools run in the background or when updates screw a local printer up. Enough said... i don't want to sound like a troll.

To IT_Guy: I am no "troll" (whatever that is).

You most certainly can write drivers for future operating systems. Granted, it's easier after the new OS is completed and the specifications for the driver model have been finalized, but this is what vendors have been doing for years. It's all part of customer support. If you want people to continue to buy your products, then whenever a new OS comes out with a new driver model, you have to write updated drivers for that OS.

Now if you want to have your drivers integrated with the OS, then you will find yourself working in partnership with the OS developers during the alpha and beta stages, with the ultimate goal of providing a good "out-of-box experience" to the end-user. Vendors who don't have drivers integrated with Vista have the obligation to provide their customers with updated drivers through other methods. The real reason that Vista lacks drivers is that many vendors wait until after the OS ships before they really start working on those updated drivers.

Microsoft may require most drivers to be certified for Vista, but it's the vendors responsibility to actually test them. I know this because my company not only has drivers "in-the-box", but we've certified nearly a dozen OEM specific drivers for Vista in the past 4 months.

So want to know who bears MOST of the responsibility for Vista drivers? Better look in the mirror, cause it's not Microsoft.

Just wanted to clarify. I'm not the Paul from that slashdot rant. Is that why you think I'm a troll?

Cute, but if Vista was my girl-friend, she'd soon be the EX. I don't like her any more than I do IE7.
I have used the Beta & RCs as well as Ultimate RTM of Vista.
Writing software in such a way that you literally have to hack it, or resort to third party software, to customize it to your liking is a very poor choice.
AOL's attempts to protect people from themselves and appeal to the lowest common denominator didn't turn out very well. Why does MS think that is the way to go?
If what I see in Vista/IE7/Office 11 is the future of MS, they might as well lock the doors now.
I'm surprised MS hasn't started running spoofs of the old Burger King ads... "Have it OUR way at MS Today!"

Paul, it doesn't matter who bears most of the responsibility for Vista's drivers. Consumers, the buying public, couldn't care less. The ONLY thing they care about is, you're exposing yourself to the risk of compatibility (both hw and sw) if you adopt Vista too early.

You talk about "trade-offs." But there are no trade-offs if you stick with XP, which by virtue of its maturity has a very complete set of good drivers.

Just wait for SP1 or SP2. What's the damn hurry???

On a related note, I found a *great* article by Jerry Pournelle, the Grand Old Man of IT journalism. (I used to read Pournelle all the time, from way back in the days of BYTE magazine.)

Here's the article. Enjoy!

Jerry write much better than Joe. (full stop)

gizz f christ, try going outside and smell some fresh air, or polluted air, or whatever. it should take some of the urine/shit stink away from you pale body.

eder wrote: "Jerry write much better than Joe. (full stop)"

Jerry Pournelle writes better than pretty much everybody. He's in a class all his own.

Joe

Joe,

I like your analogy that you use for Vista, very humorous. But you know I hold you to a higher intelligent evaluation of Vista than this, which I believe is forthcoming. We all had our little flings with pretty, and I have seen Vista myself in the stores. It did look very nice at first, with aero clicking thru the menus. At first try I liked it myself. But wheres the real value? I do see the cost.

But that is all eye-candy, and not what I would buy. Its very hard to get my bucks. They has to be something of worth to get it. I would ask Joe to evaluate a few features of Vista for us, in his usual fair and balanced way.

First, I would like to know more about the DRM in Vista. About half the time I start Windows Media Player and play an MP3 mfpmp.exe starts running Please check this out for us, as you can in windows task manager by pressing alt-crtl-del. What I have seen on the internet (wish I could find that article again) is that mfpmp.exe uses appox 150mb of ram when it starts and runs. But only kicks in on MP3 files under Windows Media player about half the time.

Hey, Joe, will your new gal allow some of your old friends around? You know, Nero, anydvd, clone, etc. I see you had to dump the very good FREE AVG for the absolute worse rated M$ Onecare anti virus. How much does M$ Onccare substandard anti virus cost per year? Since I am a Techie (or nerd if you prefer) I know that many of these programs are not compatible with Vista, since people come to me with their new laptops, and ask me to wipe Vista off the hard drives and install their old XP.

Once M$ has enough people using this new OS, then the Riaa and Mpaa, or even M$, can “flip the switch” and deny your ability to play any multimedia file. Or, report you for that matter. Thats why its the Big Brother of Operating Systems.

If Vista is making most folks buy a lot of software because their old software will not work with Vista, wouldn't it be time to think about removing Vista and replacing it? Most of us are not made of money and don't live to give M$ our bottom dollar.

Linux comes with all free programs, and cost nothing to try. And if you already have a valad XP license that you can use again, why not use it, as your software is proven in it.

Nice article I agree with a lot of your views, in the early days drivers were a big problem and still are a little today, but a lot of this lies in the hands of manufacturers.

Why oh why do people have to keep on going on about how good Linux is ??
And the funny thing is that it is always a vocal few (I suppose ...just like me).
But seriously if you want to say the glories of Linux ... GO TO LINUX WATCH Chips !
This is microsoft watch, and I also agree with one person who posted a comment the other day about you guys to stop referring the Microsoft as "M$" ... MS I have problems with but the other way is totally wrong !
I am sick and tired of Linux and Apple devotees writing on this site how MS is and how good their OS of "Choice" is !
We made our choice leave us alone, anybody who doesn't know about Linux by now by yours (and others) constant writings here doesn't want to go to Linux. I will NEVER go to Linux, I have seen my daughter use it (for her IT course) and after she didn't need it she went back to Xp !
People don't shell out hundred's of Dollars for a program because its from microsoft, how about Adobe or Intuit or MYOB or any of the brands.
They are expensive because of what they do and how much time has gone into making them.
People use these programs because they have in them what people want, and not only that, the programs work the way people want.
Linux is completely different and so are the programs that are available for it, the two cannot be compared !
So Chips in summing up this is "Microsoft Watch" mate please go to "Linux Watch" and be happy !
Oh ! by the way "valad" is spelt "valid" mate !

Funny Neil,
I write only one sentence on Linux, and all the rest is on Vista, and guess what you attack?

Don't shoot the messenger, just because you don't agree with the message. Argue wisely with the message and I would have some respect for your position perhaps. If you have something to contribute to the discussion, and facts to back them up, this would sure be nice for a change. We could do with a lot less emotion and a lot more facts.

Here's a little emotion for ya;
Oh, and by the way; M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ or how about; Micro$oft Micro$oft Micro$oft?
enjoy

Hoped you like the emotion Neil. Oh, and BTW, how do you spell "spelt" Mate? Maybe that was a typo? You have a great future as an English Teacher or a Micro$oft paid blogger.

Did I spell that right? M$ or MicroSoft, nope, maybe MicroShaft? LOL Yep, thats it!

Chips
You are so immature aren't you ! Like a little kid !

you got me Neil, I give up. Theres just no responding to that. Just hope I spelt that right?

BTW Neil, since both you and your relative are both using XP and mot Vista, from your many attack posts, perhaps you can explain why you as a "defender of the M$ rich" do not use Vista yourself?

We would like to know? Could it be the fact that Micro$haft overcharges for Vista boxed versions in Australia? What is the price their, enlighten us. Prove to us you are not just a troll or a M$ shill.

Chips
To be truthful ... I am waiting because I need to do hardware upgrades on my computer, my daughters and my son's computer.
Directx 10 graphic cards, new (bigger) hard drive, etc. the usual things.
I resent your contention that I am a "shill", I work for myself (nothing to do with computers) in sporting goods.
Computers are my hobby that's all, and of course I need one for work and that's it.
So stop being so childish !

Neil,
Why then are you giving me a hard time about Vista, when you don't even run it?????

I don't think I am being childish in that I think you should actually know something first when you attack others!

Back off. You know nothing. I use Windows and Linux equally. Although Trolls like you push me more to Linux.

BTW, I hope you pay for all the hardware updates and get Vista.

here it is Joe. Sorry it took me so long to find it.

http://chalain.livejournal.com/43015.html

Paul

and in all fairness, yours is better on second read. :)

i wasn't trolling, just stating my opinion based on recollection.

Neil, how many times do I have to tell you...?!

1) Whatever happens in the Open Source and Apple worlds affects Microsoft's fortunes, so it is correct and appropriate to discuss those developments on Microsoft Watch.

2) Windows, OS X, and Linux share the same IT market space. Since Linux and OS X are perfectly legitimate alternatives to Windows, it is correct and appropriate to discuss those platforms on Microsoft Watch.

Perhaps I am being too hard on Neil. While I don't have any respect for his constant attack posts on people who don't want to use Vista, or use XP, Linux, or OS/X instead, there is one thing I do greatly admire about Neil.

Neil is at least honest about it, when cornered about the fact that he runs XP and not Vista. For this I give him a lot of credit. That took some guts to admitt.

Be careful Neil, spending all that money upgrading to Vista. Most of us (myself included) cannot afford it.

That's just sad neil, too be honest with you, your close friend needs to be paid more attention too, if you catch my driffed. You really shouldn't descibe baby vista as a she. It's still growing up. i'll give you one chance before i tell the child services. lol

baby fucker

I don't see the attraction of Linux and/or open source. asp.net is faster and more processor-friendly than evil php. Same case with SQL Server over MySQL or Postgre. Plus it's free. Sharepoint will make html obsolete within two years. Not only that, but the WWW will be running on safe, secure, free IIS. You people are all idiots.

Vista is the ABSOLUTE WORSE!!!...NOTHING IS COMPATIBLE WITH IT AND IF IT IS IT COSTS 3X MORE MONEY TO PURCHASE...IM SWITCHING BACK TO XP ON MY NEXT CHECK...MY ADVICE, DO NOT BUY A COMPUTER WITH VISTA OPERATING SOFTWARE AND THAT'S DA TRUUF

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