Retail Windows' Dim Vista
 Joe Wilcox
I thought I had seen the worst of the new PC-buying situation. I was wrong. |
On Saturday, we visited friends in Fredericksburg, Va., where I had chance to see, not one, but two miserable Windows Vista PC buying situations. Retailers share the blame with manufacturers and Microsoft, which should never have unleashed Windows Vista Home Basic (aka Windows Basic) on unsuspecting consumers.
Some background on the friends we were visiting: the husband is the network administrator for a trade association based in Washington, D.C. The wife home schools their four daughters. She had seen a $399 Windows Vista laptop at the local Wal-Mart, and she wanted him to go check it out.
The husband had almost no interest in Vista, other than curiosity. He'll run Windows XP as long as possible on the corporate network he administrates.
His reasons:
- The UAC (User Account Control) would mean more nagging from his users. He routinely sets up everyone as standard users, which leads to complaints and extra administration. His research leads him to believe that UAC would increase rather than decrease the nag factor.
- The organization uses several older peripherals, including 10 year-old laser printers, for which the manufacturers told him there will be no Vista drivers.
- Several major applications, including design and messaging software, aren't compatible with Windows Vista.
Less Than Basic Enough
He wanted my advice, so I joined the scouting expedition. I don't shop at Wal-Mart and hadn't been inside one in four years. We ambled through the giant retail store to the electronics section. There we found, as advertised, an Acer laptop with 14.1-inch screen, Intel Celeron processor, 80GB hard drive and whopping 512MB (yeah, I'm being sarcastic) system memory. We were ready to handle this blue-light special, Windows Basic beauty, but there was a problem: The store had encased all of its notebooks in a Plexiglas case. There would be no touching or exploration. To make matters worse, the computers were switched off, too.
Maybe Wal-Mart shoppers buy strictly on price so little things, like Vista's Aero user interface and other new features, are low on their buying priority list. I definitely had a "wow" experience looking at the black screens encased like museum artifacts, but I expressed more disbelief than joyous exclamation. I'm sure Microsoft had a different kind of "wow" in mind for its Vista notebooks.
We gave up shopping the Wal-Mart and scooted down to the next plaza, where there was a Best Buy. Apparently, the electronics giant had felt the pinch of Wal-Mart's encased loss leader. Best Buy had discounted a Gateway notebook, with a near identical configuration to the Acer, by $200, down to $399. The laptop met Microsoft's stated specs for Windows Basic, including 512MB of RAM and 32-bit dedicated graphics.
I clicked on the Welcome Center and the waiting game started. Forty-five seconds later, the Welcome Center opened. Most of the other functions showed similar sluggishness. I wanted to check for any errant applications that might be slowing down the computer, but the Task Manager was locked by the UAC. Once again, the "wow" I uttered likely wasn't the kind Microsoft was hoping for from a potential customer.
Assessing the Price Increases
I'm not going to bicker over the system requirements and whether or not 512MB is adequate to run Windows Basic. Yet. And I won't because Windows Basic is the problem.
What is the purpose of Windows Basic? The way I see it, Microsoft sought to increase what OEMs, businesses and consumers pay for Windows with Vista. Windows Basic isn't comparable to Windows XP Home Edition, even though the products appear to be priced about the same. Basic is much less than XP Home.
Windows Vista Home Premium is more and less than Windows XP Professional. It's more because it has Media Center and less because of the networking capabilities and other features shifted to Vista Business, Enterprise and Ultimate.
What is the difference in pricing? Microsoft doesn't disclose OEM pricing, but user upgrades give some insight. For notebooks preloaded with Windows Basic, Gateway charges an extra $39 and HP an extra $35. For a few select SKUs, the charge is only $20. Dell charges an additional $29 for Premium and $99 for Business.
Coming into the Vista launch, Microsoft executives said they expected Premium to be the dominant version, which was confirmed by last week's fiscal fourth quarter earnings.
The problem is that PC manufacturers and retailers still need to offer cut-rate PCs, and that's where Basic comes in. Premium's and Ultimate's hefty system requirements create perhaps an even greater need. After all, many PC manufacturers operate on razor thin margins. I presume low-priced Wal-Mart doesn't make a whole lot in margin-rich warranty contracts, assuming they're even offered.
Creeping Basic Configurations
My question is this: are more PC manufacturers offering more Basic SKUs? This evening I took a look and was surprised to see the difference. Dell now offers Windows Basic on Inspiron 1501 SKUs that are selling for as much as $878 (currently discounted to $699) and Inspiron 1420, which are selling for as much as $1,083 (currently discounted to $849).
HP also offers Windows Basic in a similar price range, like asking $649.99 (currently instant-discounted) for the C6500T or $824.99 (currently instant-discounted to $624.99) for the V6000T. By contrast, Gateway SKUs skew heavily towards other Vista versions, mainly Premium.
Retail is also a bit different. For example, Circuit City currently offers 83 notebooks, four with Basic and eight with Windows XP versions. Best Buy had a similarly low number of Basic SKUs.
I don't see a major increase in the number of SKUs so much as a creep up in Windows Basic notebooks with higher average selling prices. It's no shock to see a $399 Basic model at Wal-Mart. But a $849 street price from a major direct manufacturer is most surprising. Most of the Basic systems come with Microsoft's recommended amount of memory.
But is 512MB memory enough to run Windows Basic, as stated in the system requirements? Vista's Windows Experience Index rated memory as the lowest-ranked component on the Gateway I observed at Best Buy. And the operating system speaks for itself, methinks. The channel will offer Basic, and apparently the recommended configuration, which may not be enough. I say may, because one retail computer doesn't make a trend.
That said, my Saturday retail experience is a far cry from the "wow" Microsoft wants consumers to experience with Vista. As for my friend, last week he had ordered one Vista PC along with a bunch of XP laptops just to try them out.
Oh right, didn't he say something about planning to cancel the Vista order after our store experiences?
Related Posts:
- It's Not Ultimate Enough, Microsoft Watch, July 2, 2007
- She Learned How to Use Vista Where?, Microsoft Watch, June 26, 2007
- Personal Vista, Microsoft Watch, May 2, 1007
- What Would You Pay for Vista?, Microsoft Watch, April 22, 2007
- How Much Does Microsoft Make From Office 2007 and Vista?, Microsoft Watch, April 12, 2007
- Uh-Oh! PC Sales Levels Are Normal, Microsoft Watch, April 11, 2007
- Consumer Inertia Holds Back Vista, Microsoft Watch, April 5, 2007
- The Trouble with Vista Capable, Microsoft Watch, April 4, 2007
- Who's Buying Which Vista, Microsoft Watch, February 3, 2007
- The Ultimate Question Answered, Microsoft Watch, January 30, 2007
- Microsoft's Ultimate Disadvantage, Microsoft Watch, January 28, 2007
Create, Communicate, Collaborate with IT Professionals at Ziff Davis Enterprise IT Link.
Comments (41)
Anyone who buys computers at retail stores is a moron. We are watching the Walmart-ization of the computer industry.
Posted by Roger | July 23, 2007 8:41 PM
Joe
I don't care about whether it was "Home Basic" the main thing that you know full well .... 512MB of RAM.
You have got to be kidding !!!!
Microsoft themselves say that the "minimum requirement" is 512 MB .... which really means that you 1GB !!
SO WHY BOTHER !
This story is not microsoft's fault .... it is the builder of the system.
As the saying goes "when is CHEAP too cheap ... when it's really cheap !"
Posted by Neil | July 23, 2007 9:15 PM
Hi Joe,
Since I have been back in Australia (from London), I have upgraded 8 computers to Vista from Windows XP, and purchased a new laptop with Vista.
For 5 of the machines, I have purchased Home Basic because quite frankly that is perfect for people in my parents generation. In addition, I have purchased copies of Office Home and Student because you can install it on 3 machines in a single house - which covers the desktops and laptops in each of the homes (3 homes all up and thus 3 copies of Office).
It is a perfect mix for my parents, my wife's parents and my uncle, to have Vista Home Basic along with Office 2007 Home and Teacher Edition.
Out of interset: The installation has worked perfectly on all these 8 machines, drivers automatically detected and downloaded from Windows Update, etc. All 'customers' are happy.
I am happy because when I return to the UK soon, I know they will have a more secure environment.
Quite frankly Joe I am sick of the way the media (including yourself) writes up this stuff. Vista is *way* better than XP was at its times of release in late 2001.
Posted by David Taylor | July 23, 2007 9:33 PM
Joe,
May I also add that many of the computers where I have setup Vista Home do only have 512 MB of RAM, including integrated graphics (in other words less than 512 MB for the operating system).
This amount of memory, while not ideal, is still perfectly fine for most of the laptops I have installed Home Basic on. The trick is to do a clean install without any of the rubbish OEMs install on the machine.
The real problem is OEMs being paid to install lots of rubbish from Google (etc) on a machine with only 512 MB RAM.
Home Basic is fine with a vanilla install.
Posted by David Taylor | July 23, 2007 9:39 PM
Joe
Anybody that looks for a way to poop on someones "Wow" experience they will find it. I can poop on the iPhone parade in a heart beat like anyone can do that to an MS product, ok maybe faster because the MS parade is bigger.
The person looking to boost and encourage the "Wow" factor will find it. What where you out looking for to make the "Wow" factor bad? Does any one realy expect to get a wow factor with 512MB. That is like thinking my $7k toyato tercel was going to be like a 20k to 30k toyota mr2 and when it was not, I was thinking I got a lemon - not. Just on price only when the high end computer is $2k to $3K and you paying how much, would that not be some indicator that you may not be getting the wow factor? Just like that comparison in parices of a car I knew if I pay 7K for a car compared to a 20K to 30K there might not be a wow factor. Unles you roll the windows down and stick you head out the window (Ace Venture). Just like pay the over price iPhone price of $600 bucks there better be a wow facter compared to the $74 BlackJack.
I guess if you wanted to poo on MS's "Wow" factor for a CHEEP performance and price you will find it not hard to do. It might have taken you longer to write the atricle and do reasech than it was to find a computer to poop on the parade.
When MS was thinking of the "Wow" factor I don't think they where talking about a $800 computer with Vista Basic, 512MB and 80GB hard drive. To start a "Wow" experience with that kind of hardware regardless of O/S might lack a "Wow" factor period. Compared to one with 1GB of RAM more HD and bit faster maybe dual core systems. That would be like starting off with a 4 cylinder car and assuming when the manufacture said "Thier cars go supper dupper ultra fast!!" and you where thinking of that 4 bagger and how fast it was going to go.
But I guess you got what you where looking for. Next week why not look for the "Wow" factor and right up another article on what you find when you look for the real thing. Why not let us know for a reasonable price what one could pay before dipping out of the "Wow" factor. If I took one of those CHEEP computers and upgraded to 1GB Why not something usefull then perpetuating the poop on parade talk. What would be the ideal computer then in your mind's eye if these are not. Why not compare that kind of hardware running Linux or if there is a Apple with that hardward in it that is the same price run OS X.
Joe, give us something useful or is it just to poop on the parade hope it dies and move on so next week it wont be there? Why not help out or is this the idea of helping out. Why not suggest something else to your friends. Why not call it po
Posted by Computer Guy | July 23, 2007 10:17 PM
The wait for the Microsoft software partners and developers is going to be long and painful.
If they aren't going to show Vista SP1 until 2008, Vista will be well on its way to poorly adopted obsolescence as MSFT has now told everyone Windows Seven ("Vienna" the one to replace Vista) is going to be out in 2010.
Well, why would you buy Vista?
I think MSFT management is willing to let Vista die so they don't have to admit to infringement. They want to be able to turn around and bite the other "infringers" trespassing their own patents... so if they can prove by 2010 VCSY patent is invalid, they have a free shot at the technology and the web.
Do Microsoft managers, engineers and boardmembers believe the company can survive three years not being able to work the web?
The answer is no. They can't be rational and think they've got a rational strategy with this delay delay delay in public dance they're going to have to do in public.
Look at the jockeying to retro back to XP given the stumbled shareprice and the questions about where Vista SP1 is and when. Then we have to learn from a court filing in the Google issues July 19.
July 19 is when the SP1 was rumored to be issued to a small "select" beta crowd. I wonder if it was actually issued in a secret ceremony?
Posted by Pdiddy | July 23, 2007 10:32 PM
Joe does bring up a good point about Basic and 512 mb ram, thats it really not what a lot people will "enjoy." Except for all the M$ fanboys and partners posting here these days. Somehow Micro$oft is trying to write off the cheap computers, or to put it another way, the bottom third (slowest) computers. M$ is trying to become a niche system for wealthier users, sort of like what Mac is.
There is a well thought out reason for this. Believe that M$ has come to the conclusion that its operating system is so pirated, that most of the pirates, will not buy Vista. They will hold onto whatever windows version they have, and some will move to Vista. To put it frankly, a lot of those Pirates, just cannot afford fast new computers and or Vista.
In the short run, M$ will not lose nothing by losing these Pirates and low end systems. Expect the bottom line for M$ to actually increase if anything. Wealthier people can afford to pay more, and will. M$ is ingenuous at finding new ways to sell their software, as Joe posted earlier with his Rental post. Too bad they blew it with the “WOW.” When I saw the price, I said WOW.
Posted by chips b malroy | July 23, 2007 10:44 PM
The lucky ones will move to Linux.
Posted by chips b malroy | July 23, 2007 10:47 PM
I just wanted to say something. Home Basic is very good for 2 reasons. 1 if a customer wants a low end computer that they will only be using for browsing the internet and iming. nothing else. 2 if a cusomter has a low end computer with XP Home on it, and wish to upgrade to Vista, get more life out of their computer.
Otherwise I recommend Home Premium with 1G, which you can easily get for 699 to 1,000 at bestbuy. After I remove all the google junk from the machines they run GREAT.
Posted by JoeM | July 23, 2007 10:51 PM
I don't know if I ever will fully understand why an operating system would need a gig of memory to run well. I don't plan on upgrading my machine to Vista because I have serious doubts about its performance. My computer grinds down to a snails pace with my XP system at times. I am glad I don't have an operating system which takes even more resources. In defence of XP, I am normally running Apache, mySQL, Eclipse, Opera, IE, and sometimes Visual Studio at the same time when this happens; so I have to be careful to close programs before I open others. I just wish I had a system that could handle this.
Pardon my rant,
Interesting article Joe,
Phil Deets
Posted by Phil Deets | July 23, 2007 11:02 PM
Pdiddy
Windows 7 was said by microsoft to come out at the earliest of 2010, if you wait for it, you may wait at least a year longer than than that ... if not 2012.
Chips
Always there to put a plug in for Linux.
Posted by Neil | July 23, 2007 11:48 PM
I have two brothers, and I'm the IT admin at both the companies they work for. One got Vista Home Basic and loves it (much to my annoyance), the other got Ultimate and within a week he had re-installed XP (much to my delight, makes my job easier).
Neither of them have or had (IMHO) enough RAM & VRAM, but at least on Basic Home, it's not really a problem. He'll only ever have Outlook, some basic accounting software & firefox open at once. His HD is probably going to be 'well-used', but he doesn't seem to mind, he loves Vista.
So there ya go, VHB is probably the best edition for people who don't know much about PC's and just need an OS.
Posted by Ben | July 24, 2007 1:28 AM
Chips...
All I can say is the hell with the Windows or Linux debate: go with OSX on Apple hardware. That is by far the best solution for someone who wants a great experience end-to-end without having to get nagged all day by UAC (Windows) or deal with 'will my hardware work on Linux' roulette game. Sure you'll pay for it, but the best experiences are worth it, just ask Starbucks.
The sad reality is that Windows isn't going anywhere anytime soon (either with improvements or altogether) and Linux is still a fragmented mess... By the numbers, Apple is taking market share from both of them and given the share of Windows, that means more trouble for 'sorry, I have to recompile my kernel to get my new mouse to work' Linux. And please, just don't be more cliched than you already are and mention Ubuntu.
Posted by vNext | July 24, 2007 2:10 AM
how hard is it for people to spell Microsoft without inserting stupid $ signs. if you don't like the company, then don't support their products by buying them!
Posted by kaelsa | July 24, 2007 4:20 AM
Kaelsa
Chips does not want anyone to buy microsoft products at all !!
And anyone who stands up for microsoft he calls a "shill", who is a person that gets paid to support someone ... in this case microsoft.
vNext
I would like to see your figures that you speak of, because quite frankly Linux is in single digits and so is Apple.
But I would stand corrected if you would show them here.
Posted by Neil | July 24, 2007 6:07 AM
Hey Roger,
I had a presentation the day following a laptop meltdown and bought a replacement at a retail store (Staples) so I could get my job done.
That makes me a moron?
Watch it with the blanket statements, context is important.
As for Vista, I had basic but the machine it is on is with HP at the moment going on week 4 of repair hell because they can't manage *their* supply chain properly and keep parts in their centers. I put an extra gig in it to bring it to 1.5gb and it ran fine. Just remove all the crapware first and don't clog it up with stuff you don't need.
Posted by TK | July 24, 2007 7:40 AM
"I don't shop at Wal-Mart and hadn't been inside one in four years."
Oh, God! If only I lived somewhere where Wal-Mart wasn't everywhere! Target is too damned far from my home to pick up detergent.
Posted by Kudzu | July 24, 2007 7:43 AM
I still happily use my four year old Powerbook w/ 512MB of RAM with the latest version of OS X, no issues at all. No bloat, 60+ days of uptime between reboots (for patches) and no overhead of antivirus, antispyware, antiphishing, system restore, ten different "updaters" running as daemons in the background.
Vista Enterprise on my work laptop (2GB RAM, 4.9 Vista perf score) takes two minutes to get to a usable desktop as tens of hundreds of processes and tasks are triggered to start at login and collide. And all of them are deemed more important than anything I, as a user want to accomplish, so I'm forced to sit there and watch the swirl as it slowly draws out the desktop and the hard drive thrashes away. It's night and day compared to OS X.
Vista consumes all the computer's resources for itself just to start & run, and you as a user get whatever crumbs of CPU and RAM that might be left over. Wow indeed.
Posted by Christopher | July 24, 2007 8:09 AM
MS had analyzed the market very well, with the objective of extract the maximum amount from its users, it’s the motive of five OS, but now unlike before its premises were mistaken;
-MS:I have dominate (I monopolize) the market and because it you will buying what I want give you (although it's expensive, half baked, spy on you, and difficult third part work ( retails-economic competitiveness- and drive's makers.) Wrong play, now there are clears alternatives, Linux (mainly the market bottoms and to begin to raise superior layers) Apple (higher market and it begin to lower to the other layers.)
Results?; problems selling Vista (problems aggravate with the apparently impossibility of fix Vista -code mess-), But MS HAVE to sell Vista. How? Simple more publicity and more shills (what do you think Chips?, it's rare so many “defenders”, is it not? ) and at the end other SO (Vienna) ,surely vista now with the code fixed.
Conclusion: the summer is finito MS (MS know it and is changing until its way to make businesses)
Posted by Marco | July 24, 2007 9:30 AM
You make it clear Windows VISTA is not a good first choice for a basic laptop. I agree. As someone who has purchased four laptops for a business in the past few months, all of them have been configured with Windows XP. I have gone out of my way to avoid any contact with VISTA.
Also, as a long time observer of the PC market, surely you know that the dark conspiracy of Microsoft and PC manufacturers is to double the basic configuration in terms of processor and memory required for each new OS release by the Redmond giant. Not this time.
Best Buy, Staples, Circuit City, etc., sell crippled laptops loaded with VISTA to meet market price points and so does every other big box home consumer electronics retailer. Do yourself a favor and configure your PC online at a manufacturer's web site. Be prepare to pay about $1,000 for a decent machine that runs Windows XP. That price includes 1 Gb ram, 120 Gb hard disk, Intel dual core processor at 1.8 Ghz with 1 Mb cache, virus checker / firewall, one year extended warranty, and shipping.
As far as software is concerned, you can get Open Office for free doing everything that Microsoft Office does, email client and browser from Mozilla, etc.
Look folks, laptops are consumables and last about three years assuming you don't drop one or spill your coffee on the keyboard. If it is going to be your primary PC do your self a favor and pay a few extra bucks to avoid VISTA dysfucntion.
Posted by Ohadi Langis | July 24, 2007 9:34 AM
I just fail to see the value in Vista. Where is the reason upgrade? MS sure has some good marketing reason but fall quite short on any technical reasons. Most people are put off by the baked in DRM and the MS check in "features". I have completed numerous conversions on folks who bought new desktops and laptops with Vista back to Windows XP. Some folks tried it before going back others had me remove it right from the box not even wanting to test it out. I do not remember this being the case with previous version of Windows outside the tech industry. Most home user were happy to have W2K or XP home and would deal with the shortcomings of the time. This does not seem to be the case with Vista in my little world anyway.
Posted by Scott Freeman | July 24, 2007 10:27 AM
Interesting link
Acer attacks Microsoft
www.ftd.de/technik/it_telekommunikation/:Acer%20Microsoft/229580.html
Posted by Marco | July 24, 2007 12:55 PM
Marco nice story about Acer and MS.
Here is another link with a little different take;
http://reseller.co.nz/reseller.nsf/news/3D419ECE07152C54CC257322001367F2
Posted by chips | July 24, 2007 2:27 PM
I have never seen UAC locked the Task Manager unless the account is a "limited User" or Group Policy has been set for that particular when trying to access certain administrative features of the OS.
Also, that IT guy should know better, you can setup the OS using Ximage and Group Policy settings so Vista can function they way he wants to manage it. So if he prefers to enforce his own security settings instead of those included in the OS [UAC], he can do that.
As for Basic, I think its an enticing value to individuals who want the latest version of Windows on the cheap. Its in between Starter and Home Premium. My sister in law had it on her Dell, but took it off and installed Business, but that was too powerful for the system, so she went back to XP Pro. She plans on getting a system for the family though with Vista Home Premium in the near future.
Of course, I am running Vista Ultimate on 2 out of my 5 machines and Vista Business on 1 out of the 5.
Posted by Andre Da Costa | July 24, 2007 10:30 PM
Vista has certainly "enticed" me. In fact, after spending ten minutes booting and another ten minutes opening Firefox on my wife's new Vista machine, that SUSE 10.2 disc became downright seductive. My old AST 486/50 boots and runs fasterwith W95.
MSFT's problem isn't just that Vista sucks; it's that they aren't planning to offer anything better for several years. Which means my daughters will grow up in a Linux environment.
Posted by Ken Houghton | July 25, 2007 6:04 PM
Ken
What was the system you ran Vista on ?
I have seen lots of stories here about how slow Vista was ... but this one takes the cake !!
We all know by now that there are certain requirements and yours really sounds like it doesn't make the grade.
Posted by Neil | July 25, 2007 7:59 PM
Ken, you call having a wannabe Office suite bundled with a makeshift OS called Linux better? Get real!
Posted by Andre Da Costa | July 26, 2007 1:02 AM
Andre ;Ken just gave his opinion , what give you the right to push him?,oh sorry I forgot for a moment that you get your money for defending to MS, but you need to be more subtle and you'd not to be unmasked so fast and foolishing ,because your Lord could fired you!( although, thinking better ,Ballmer in his desperation maybe is demanding it to you.)
Posted by Marco | July 26, 2007 8:58 AM
Marco, I did not push Ken. I dissed Linux because he dissed Vista first. Big difference, unless Ken is a distribution of Linux I am not aware of.
I do not work for Microsoft, they DO NOT own my blog. I want to make that very clear!!!!
Posted by Andre Da Costa | July 26, 2007 11:40 AM
Andre,Marco
Why is it when someone stands up for Microsoft people howl them down, and then say things like "because your Lord could fired you!" or "you are a M$ Shill".
This is a free world isn't it ?? Just like you we have our own opinion.
We are not the "enemy" because you hate Microsoft and we don't !!
Marco ... do you prefer Linux than Windows, if you do ... I am happy that you are happy.
But please don't do this sort of thing just because our view is different to yours.
I myself like Windows (just for the record).
But as I say if you like Linux or OSX fine, but stop telling us off because we like Windows.
Posted by Neil | July 26, 2007 9:04 PM
Marco
I smell a rat anyway in Ken's comment, ten minutes to start up Windows and another ten to start up firefox.
Since when ??
On a 486 maybe !
Other than that ... give me a break !
Ken makes claims but doesn't give the full story.
Like I said ...something smells fishy with his comment !
Posted by Neil | July 26, 2007 9:09 PM
Well Neil you ask and I answer. Something I dislike is when some people abuse others.
When Andre said Ken "get real", he meant to push him and everybody can take notice of that.
E.g: You asked Ken, which is OK, you have got the right to do it. I am glad you are different now, so different to the former Neil who used to bully everyone. Now, you defend a valid point through reasoning rather than harassment.
Regarding to M$ Shill:
I regret to have noticed that, but there is a fair amount of evidence pointing out that those we name shills is because they are very likely to be. Perhaps in some other time I will give you more details about this.
I respect Ken's opinion, for it is his very own experience. He neither insulted nor offended nobody.
Therefore, he is got the right issue an opinion without being offended.
It is no habit of mine to explain things this way, but because you have enquired very politely I feel have got the duty to oblige and respond.
Posted by Marco | July 26, 2007 11:23 PM
Marco,
Have noticed more than a few so called commentators here with "just the facts" wannabe Vista websites with the link in their name for their sites here at MS watch. Heck, Andre even uses "Live.com" as his domain. And, of course, they hate everything that does not help their bottom line for Bill Gates.
Now I don't know for a fact that all are MS Shills, even though I suspect it. some like Andre could fall more into a category of "MS partner." Still, he definately makes money in some way off his site, either by promoting or selling MS products. By promoting, that could be recieving a paycheck from MS, for speading all the PR (FUD).
As far as Neil, he too uses a common tack, in that he never really debates, he is just on the attack all the time, pretending to be a fanboy of the downtroden Richest people in the world, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer for example.
These guys could care less how much computers users spend their hard earn money on, as long as they pay thru the nose and buy M$ products. So no matter if they are shills or not, the effect is the same, getting some poor person to waste their money on a substandard Micro$oft unsecure, piece of spyware OS or Office system. When they could be running a free Linux with free OpenOffice or Mac OS X.
Posted by chips | July 26, 2007 11:42 PM
Its all about the money, isn't it guys?
And Micro$oft will do almost anything to keep the Lemmings on the path, including employing the use of shills in the comments.
But some of use have had enough serfdom, and are not Microserfs anymore.
Posted by chips | July 27, 2007 12:06 AM
Chips
Your comment "he is just on the attack all the time, pretending to be a fanboy of the downtroden Richest people in the world".
Is just not true !!
Again (just like I said before) someone sticks up for microsoft and up comes someone like you, to say no way Jose, Microsoft is bad and anything else is good. Of course in this case means "Linux".
Most of the FUD about Microsoft (in general) and now Windows Vista is spread by people like who just can't tolerate people sticking up for microsoft.
Just because they have made millions out of it... so what ! Are you also going to put down Steve Jobs as well ?? I know what would happen if you did ! There would be a huge cry out from the Apple people, and I wouldn't blame them. So why the hell should you be able to put me down for sticking up for microsoft.
I never hear you putting down "Novell" ... oh I'm sorry , that's Linux isn't it, mustn't do that, must we !
Posted by Neil | July 27, 2007 6:11 AM
Ken
Getting back to my question, what is your system made up of that it (presumably) takes 10 minutes to start up.
You see this sort of unsubstiated statement adds to the "rumour mill" that Vista is no good, but it has NO BASIS, no facts to back it up, someone might hear of it and say to themselves "Oh gee I heard a rumour about Vista from a trusted friend the other day, don't buy Vista."
So some (not all) people don't buy Windows based on an unfounded rumour.
That is like saying "the earth is flat", I heard a professor say it the other day, so it must be true.
Sorry I got a bit angry with Chips and his condesending attitude (not the right spelling I know) take for example his writing of micro$oft or microserf.
By the way a "serf" was a peasant villager who worked unpaid for his master.
And if by that you are implying me you are really not worth getting into a fight over "Chips".
Posted by Neil | July 27, 2007 6:23 AM
Neil you notice Ken has not been able to respond since you posed that question to him? Somethings definitely fishy.
"When they could be running a free Linux with free OpenOffice or Mac OS X."
The last time I checked, OS X client cost $129, OS X Server $499. Redhat and Novel charge subscription fees for their distribution when used by businesses of all sizes. So your idea that Linux is free is nothing but 100% genuine hot air Chips!
Here is some food for thought:
http://blogs.csoonline.com/windows_vista_6_month_vulnerability_report
Posted by Andre Da Costa | July 27, 2007 9:05 AM
Neil;
A "serf" is a term used from the medieval feudal system of the Dark ages. (sort of like the M$ Dark Ages of today). A serf usually lived close to the castle of a rich Noble, and paid the Noble by using the barter system, usually a heavy percentage of his crops. Sort of what like MS would like us to do, for the privilege of using our computers.
Also, your constant attack posts on comments is not worth much, as you yourself have less experience with Vista than I do. You are still by your own words running XP.
Posted by chips | July 27, 2007 2:22 PM
Neil;
A "serf" is a term used from the medieval feudal system of the Dark ages. (sort of like the M$ Dark Ages of today). A serf usually lived close to the castle of a rich Noble, and paid the Noble by using the barter system, usually a heavy percentage of his crops. Sort of what like MS would like us to do, for the privilege of using our computers.
I would have more respect for your posts, Neil, if you actually had some experience with Vista on your computers, instead of just being an XP user. In addition, who will respect someone who gives blanket approval to everything Micro$oft does?
Posted by chips | July 27, 2007 2:57 PM
To Andre Da Costa;
Quote; "So your idea that Linux is free is nothing but 100% genuine hot air Chips!"
--------------------------------------------------
The M$ Shill is at it again, speading more M$ FUD. While a very few distros do charge, the vast majority of GNU/Linux distros do not charge for home desktop use. PCLinuxOS and Ubuntu, the top two distros at distrowatch.com are both free, as are most.
But then, Andre, you could care less about the truth, since you have sold your soul to Microsoft.
Posted by chips | July 27, 2007 10:46 PM
Sadly, Vista should be called Windows M.S.E. , [Microsoft Stockholders Edition]. It was designed and rushed to market mostly for their interests and the big money people, not the average consumer. Thats what monopolies do . If you are one of the many people who were happy with the design reliability and compatibility of xp, too bad. [ No XP for you ! ]. You can run a retail copy of xp pro indefinitly . When security updates run out in 2014 you can run IE6 or firefox in a sandbox. Its a shame their marketing people and bean counters are so shortsighted. It would be a public relations triumph for them if they contined to market and develope XP side by side with Vista. But that would be thinking big and I don't know if they are able to think big . P.S. Im learning to love Linux.
Posted by Barry | August 12, 2007 11:19 AM