I think its more about businesses seeing the clear value in Vista. My brother a few months back bought a HP Officejet 7410 AIO printer. Its is so lovely, sends facsimiles, scans, prints, built in card reader, prints wireless too. An awesome AIO. Anyway, he was trying to connect it to a second hand laptop he got with XP and it was not as seamless as Windows Vista, he had to download the available device driver and so on. But when he connected his Vista Business notebook, using the Add Printer Network wizard (wirelessly), it just showed up with the IP address wirelessly and automatically installed the driver.

Thats the seamless level of rich integration and compatibility businesses are witnessing and experiencing by using Windows Vista. Things are more agile, faster and more secure with Windows Vista. Productivity are key factors for moving to Windows Vista today. Not that I am saying, moving to Vista now won't guarantee even greater migration ease to Windows 7. But there are clear opportunities that can be reaped from investing in Windows Vista today.

Joe Asks:
"Will the road ahead lead to Windows Vista or to Seven?"
----------------------------------------------------
Vista is dead as soon as Seven comes out. But let us not forget that Seven is Vista. So it seems that the Microsoft shell game of "renaming" products, could pay off.
----------------------------------------------------
Joe says:
"I think many businesses will stick with Windows XP as long as they can, particularly with IT budgets under increasing downward pressure. But Windows 7's release and XP's ending support and availability will only increase pressure to upgrade to something."
--------------------------------------------------
There is another reason that many businesses and users will stay with XP for a long time. No Vista/Seven drivers for many of the old XP computers out there, that businesses and users already have. So I would expect Seven to only replace the majority of XP computer through attrition, when new computers are bought to replace older failing machines mostly. In this respect, Seven will be no different than Vista was before it. There will of course be some early adopters, and some company will be among them. Those companies will be higher hyped by M$ PR, of course.

The more interesting part of Joe's question is the "upgrade to something" part. I would expect to see further erosion of Windows market share on the desktop, as Seven has done nothing of value to increase security from malware, and might even be a little worse than even Vista, if that is possible.

Isn't it time to think about using a modern secure Operating System on the internet? Windows is the biggest malware target known to mankind. Linux is free, and does not suffer from the malware problems of Microsoft products. Mac is not free, cost more than Windows, but is a whole lot more secure than Windows.

Quote "My brother a few months back bought a HP Officejet 7410 AIO printer. Its is so lovely, sends facsimiles, scans, prints, built in card reader, prints wireless too."
-
Youre impressed by these features? I didnt realize Windows users were so behind. Ive been enjoying the same features through Linux for quite some time.
Maybe you should dual boot?
-
Quote Andre "Anyway, he was trying to connect it to a second hand laptop he got with XP and it was not as seamless as Windows Vista, he had to download the available device driver and so on. But when he connected his Vista Business notebook, using the Add Printer Network wizard (wirelessly), it just showed up with the IP address wirelessly and automatically installed the driver."
-
Sounds like the experience of using hardware in Linux. Why didnt you show your brother how to obtain a brand new free laptop from Microsoft?
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Quote Andre "But there are clear opportunities that can be reaped from investing in Windows Vista today."
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Especially for you (IMO) if the company investing informs Microsoft they are doing it on your recommendation.
-
@Microsoft Watch readers:
I doubt this is Andre, this post has to be a joke. After all the sillyness of "Ridleys Revelation" this cant possibly be Andre, can it?

Heres the opinion of someone on Vista who (IMO) didnt receive a generous Microsoft gift like Andre.
-
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10149662-64.html?tag=blogFeed
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But as Andre says "Vista is loved"

Gobblin is beginning to annoy me. He became more sort of attention seeker and posting useless comments on others. Either he got laid off and got too much free time or he is just frustrated that he didn't get any free laptop. May be he should find some linux related forums and post relevant views instead of making repeated unnecessary comments about free laptops! Take it easy dude.

and maybe Andre would like to comment on this quote from Billy Gates in 2007:
-
"“It’s easier for our software to compete with Linux when there’s piracy than when there’s not.”
-
–Bill Gates (2007)
-
Easier to compete? So its not normally? Ridley, would you like to comment on this?

Oh Andre, you think Vista is so great. Well hold on my friend, Windows 7 is about to take Vista to new heights; in compatability, ease of use and so many new and exciting features. But you already know that. Unfortunately Windows Vista will probably be considered a failure, but much of that will in no doubt be due to word of the even better Windows 7.

So youre not going to appologize then Ridley?
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Quote Ridley "Unfortunately Windows Vista will probably be considered a failure"
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But Ridley, Andre says its loved. Everyone loves Vista, its been a big success for Microsoft. Everyones loved its "feature rich" experience.
-
Since Andre is championing Vista, I am sure people will love his comments on 7 just as much.....standby for Win 7 promotion....laptop in the post....

@Umm
"Gobblin is beginning to annoy me."
-
Ok then, ignore my posts. Its not difficult.

Since Windows Seven now has a flaw in it that can disable the half baked at best UAC in it, its hard to see what sercurity improvement that Seven will have over XP. Not that UAC was that good even.

Windows malware on the internet is the number one problem facing users and businesses that must use the internet, as per the article below:

Corporations Are Inadvertently Becoming the No. 1 Security Threat to Their Own Customers, According to New IBM X-Force(R) Annual Report

money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0470485.htm

Quote: "First, Web sites have become the Achilles' heel for corporate IT security. Attackers are intensely focused on attacking Web applications so they can infect end-user machines. Meanwhile, corporations are using off-the-shelf applications that are riddled with vulnerabilities or even worse, custom applications that can host numerous unknown vulnerabilities that can't be patched. Last year more than half of all vulnerabilities disclosed were related to Web applications, and of these, more than 74 percent had no patch. Thus, the large scale, automated SQL injection vulnerabilities that emerged in early 2008 have continued unabated. By the end of 2008, the volume of attacks jumped to 30 times the number of attacks initially seen this summer. The second major trend IBM X-Force revealed is that although attackers continue to focus on the browser and ActiveX controls as a way to compromise end-user machines

2008 was the busiest year for discovering vulnerabilities with a 13.5 percent increase over 2007.

At the end of 2008, 53 percent of all vulnerabilities disclosed during the year had no vendor-supplied patches. Further, 46 percent of vulnerabilities from 2006 and 44 percent from 2007 were still left with no available patch at the end of 2008."
--------------------------------------------------
Why a bank would ever use Windows with all its security problems is belong believe.

And here is more on the Windows Malware problems:

Web Applications: Achilles' Heel Of Corporate Security

http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/vulnerabilities/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=213000162&subSection=News

"And keep in mind that IBM isn't alone in pointing out the vulnerability of Web applications. Security researchers at AVG Technologies recently said that in the past three months, the number of new infected Web sites grew by 66%, from 100,000 to 200,000 per day to 200,000 to 300,000 per day. And, according to Websense, 70 of the top 100 Web sites during the second half of 2008 either hosted malicious content or contained a link designed to redirect site visitors to a malicious Web site.

The most popular form of attack now is an old one. SQL injection attacks, which have been around for almost a decade, surged 134%, dethroning cross-site scripting as the most popular way to assault Web applications. IBM notes that at the beginning of 2008, there were a few thousand SQL attacks per day. By the end of the year, there were several hundred thousand SQL attacks per day."
--------------------------------------------------
If you are using Windows, there is no such thing as "safe surfing."

www.distrowatch.com download a free linux iso today, and surf with real security.

I think you're missing how deep this recession is getting. Companies soon won't be worried about an upgrade path from XP to 7, they'll be worried about having money to rent their office space. In the coming crunch you'll see old computers and software continue on for longer than any person ever thought of.
Would you rather have an old computer or no computer?

The world has changed. The endless Wintel upgrade cycle can no longer be afforded by businesses. Why must old PC's be retired. The answer is they don't have to be.

Microsoft won't do a direct XP to 7 upgrade because it would tick off hardware vendors. The computer manufacturers would then have no reason to continue paying the Microsoft tax and would start pushing Linux, especially for virtual servers.

The PC age is over. Its silly to try to predict what happens in a new age by applying the rules of the previous age.

Nothing inherently wrong with Vista, it just didn't catch on that well. ME, now that was a failure from an adoption and a technological standpoint. Andre is correct that Vista is loved. It is loved by those who use it. Those that stuck with XP were willing to wait for the next Windows, which will be an O.S. that is basically Vista, with much time spent getting more features out of its advanced technology.

Whats inherently wrong with Vista and all Windows?

Conficker Windows virus infects 15 million PCs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/4338625/Conficker-Windows-virus-infects-15-million-PCs.html

Quote: "A computer virus has now infected around 15 million PCs across the world, including computers of junior staff at the Ministry of Defence, hospitals, councils and some large British firms."
----------------------------------------------------
What can you say about the sercurity in Windows, when even Joe Wilcox gets a virus, the British Royal Navy gets a virus, etc. What can you expect from the average user who is less knowledgable?

Windows Vista on 15 million systems, Windows in general is on over 1 billion systems. Its vastly supported by the computer industry. Linux is 0.83% and dying. Whats so hard to understand about that? Windows includes proper defense mechanisms in place to protect Windows systems and with appropriate security solutions on top of that foundation, users can stay safe from malicious attacks. Windows Vista provides a richer security blanket through built in features such as ASLR, Windows Defender, IE Protected Mode, Antiphishing filter, System restore. Users can take advantage of these technologies today to keep their Windows systems healthy.

@Andre
Quote "Windows systems and with appropriate security solutions on top of that foundation, users can stay safe from malicious attacks. Windows Vista provides a richer security blanket through built in features such as ASLR, Windows Defender, IE Protected Mode, Antiphishing filter, System restore. Users can take advantage of these technologies today to keep their Windows systems healthy."
-
That didnt seem to help the RAF or the Royal Navy did it?

@Chips.

Chips they have these things called BETAS.

You know UNFINISHED CODE. I know that's hard to come to grips with.

But 7 is UNFINISHED CODE. Why do you need to bring up every little flaw that pops up? The whole MSI installation problem (that I haven't experienced) and Now the UAC problem.

If these problems still exist when the final RTM is pushed then I'll raise my glass and toast you for noticing something that's been posted all over the f@*&(**& internet. Kudos. Until then stop acting like every hiccup is a derailment. It's kinda sad.

You want this to go wrong so bad.... and it most likely won't. I really feel sorry for you dude.

@ Andre
Quote:
"Windows includes proper defense mechanisms in place to protect Windows systems and with appropriate security solutions on top of that foundation, users can stay safe from malicious attacks."

Umm, well evidently, Neither Windows nor those security solutions on top of Windows are enough to protect from malicious attacks. Unless you are trying to say that the UK Royal Navy is too incompetent to reasonably manage their own systems?

Not to mention the hordes of Windows bot-net PCs out there.

Also, while your claim of Linux dying is false, it would be bad for you too if Linux did die, because that would likely take the majority of the internet and internet services as we know them with it.

@Chips

And oh yeah the whole confliker thing. Microsoft pushed a patch back in October to address that vulnerability.

Companies that got hit didn't patch.
I Did.

They most likely don't lock down endpoints at their offices to prevent the installation of USB mass storage devices. I do.

They most likely don't employ Network Access Control tech to prevent unpatched or foriegn machines from attaching to their network. I do.

And they probably don't use Vista at home. (it's less vulnerable to conflicker) I do.

Just like most malware threats this one could be easily avoided if people practiced even basic computer safety. Is turning on auto update so hard?

@Chips

And oh yeah the whole confliker thing. Microsoft pushed a patch back in October to address that vulnerability.

Companies that got hit didn't patch.
I Did.

They most likely don't lock down endpoints at their offices to prevent the installation of USB mass storage devices. I do.

They most likely don't employ Network Access Control tech to prevent unpatched or foriegn machines from attaching to their network. I do.

And they probably don't use Vista at home. (it's less vulnerable to conflicker) I do.

Just like most malware threats this one could be easily avoided if people practiced even basic computer safety. Is turning on auto update so hard?

Just a quick follow up to my last post:

You do know that every time you use Google or one of its services, you are using Linux, right?

But in all honesty, all this sound and fury we've seen since the Windows 7 beta about Windows 7 "killing" Linux is quite encouraging. I mean, if Linux truly was dead or dying, why would there need to be so much fuss about whether or not Windows 7 is going to kill it?

Think about it. If we assume that Microsoft is buying people to write about Windows 7 killing Linux, then why would Microsoft spend the money and effort to do so if it didn't view Linux as a credible threat? And if we assume that Microsoft is not behind it, then why would people even take enough notice of Linux to know what it is and write about it hadn't already made quite a name for itself?

I don't recall any flurries of "Windows XP will kill Linux" articles back when XP was coming out. I could be wrong, but I don't think there was much in the way of "Windows Vista will kill Linux" blog post a few years ago. But in the span of about 3-4 years Vista flops hard, Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular begin taking desktop usability and user-friendliness seriously, major OEMs begin shipping systems with Linux preinstalled, lightweight, cheap netbooks take off, and suddenly we've seen bloggers coming out of the woodwork trying to burn Linux in effigy.

Linux must be doing something right. I haven't seen any blogs on why Windows 7 will kill OS/2.

@Nknow:
"Is turning on auto update so hard?"

I don't know, but (a little off-topic) the last 3 hard drive reformats I had to do before my job required me to switch from using XP to using Linux were a direct result of a Windows auto update borking the system.

Quote Nknow "Just like most malware threats this one could be easily avoided if people practiced even basic computer safety. Is turning on auto update so hard?"
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So what went wrong in the case of the RAF and ROYAL NAVY?
-
Maybe you should help them out then.

NKnow says:
And oh yeah the whole confliker thing. Microsoft pushed a patch back in October to address that vulnerability.
Companies that got hit didn't patch.
I Did.
They most likely don't lock down endpoints at their offices to prevent the installation of USB mass storage devices. I do............................

This is just fine, a patch. But that patch still does not protect you from plugging in an USB drive. Microsoft is recommending they you disable auto insert for USB drives as well, if this is what you mean by lock down the endpoints. From what I read, this is not enough, as anytime you try to access that infected USB drive, it still infects the windows computer, patch or no patch. So yes, the patch helps, but its still not fixed.

Gee I don't know Goblin. And neither do you. You know what they chose to report.

I guess you could go and ask them.

I do know that Network Security is more about process and practice than it is about OS.

If you don't put into place policy and proceedure to protect organizational information structures then you damn well better get ready to get jacked. No matter what you're running. It's not like windows systems are the only ones that get compromised.

NKnow, who says :
It's not like windows systems are the only ones that get compromised...........................

Oh really??? You were really reaching too far on that one. While it is possible to compromise other systems, it not so easy, or at all common.

Quote "Gee I don't know Goblin. And neither do you. You know what they chose to report.
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I guess you could go and ask them.
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I do know that Network Security is more about process and practice than it is about OS."
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Exactly right, I dont know, but when you are talking about issues of national security, its not unreasonable to suggest that the RAF & NAVY had a little more involved security procedure than turning on auto update.
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The point I was trying to make (which you well know) Is if the RAF and NAVY cant secure a Windows system, what hope do the rest of us have?

@Sam.

Sam if you run a corporate network there are a whole host of reasons for you to disable USB mass storage devices on desktops.

And Malware doesn't even make the top 10. Theft of customer information and intellectual property are your primary concern.

As a private user well you can't protect people from their own stupidity. If you just go around and pop in thumb drives that aren't your own with content you know nothing about then god bless you go buy a Mac.

So NKnow, what you are saying it still safe if everyone throws again their USB drives? Or are you saying the safe way is to "then god bless you go buy a Mac?" Linux also would be a safe as Mac, but you missed that one.

So there it is, NKnow is saying just don't use you USB drives, no problem. LOL

@Goblin.

Heck Goblin how do you know they DID turn on auto update? And that comment was for private users. A national security organization should have a whole host of safegaurds in place no matter WHAT their operating systems are.

Without making a real assesment of what they did to protect their systems neither of us are in any posistion to make a fair judgement. Maybe a timely application of a patch could have spared them the embarrasment. I suppose they could spend the time and money needed to switch to something that gives them the illusion of security. And that would be good until they were compromised again.

And as someone whose dealt with a fair amount of infected systems I didn't the average user could do a hell of a lot better job at securing their systems than they do.

And no. Windows is not secure. For that matter the second system (X) meets internet that S*&^*t ain't secure.

@NKnow:

Yes, I agree with you in that there are other ways that USB keys can be used maliciously that don't involve infecting a legacy OS.

@ Sam

Well, Windows users are probably used to living well behind the times, tech wise, so maybe they won't mind?

@Sam.

No sam I didn't forget about Linux.

But if a person is too dumb to take simple precautions to protect themselves there's no way in hell I'd suggest they try using something as involved as a Linux distro.

Linux is for geeks. Someone who doesn't know that Thumbdrives are the FASTEST growing vector for malware infection wouldn't know enough to survive on Linux.

Quote "Heck Goblin how do you know they DID turn on auto update? And that comment was for private users. A national security organization should have a whole host of safegaurds in place no matter WHAT their operating systems are"
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We dont, and as I say whilst you are suggesting the home user can secure themselves on a Windows platform, even the armed services cannot. I do hope you release my comments were said because the armed services are using a Microsoft platform?
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Im glad we are discussing security:
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http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/jeff-jones-propganda-effect/
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Might be of interest.

Oh and Nknow.
Havent run a virus checker yet. No firewall and my system is clean.
-
Remind me how many Linux exploit victims there are?

@Sam.

Get serious Sam. Of course I didn't FORGET about linux.

Thumbdrives are the fastest growing vector for Malware. Someone who's not tech savvy enough to know that isn't tech savvy enough to use Linux.

Best to go with something that' easy to use, has a large user base and easily found support solutions.

That ain't Linux.

Nknow says:
For that matter the second system (X) meets internet that S*&^*t ain't secure..................

I got no idea what you mean with that sentence? If you are trying to apologize for Microsoft with it's terrible security problems by saying that some other system is bad, then you should try to show some proof. Because those users that use other system know they are far far more secure than Windows. But its good that you say that "Windows is not secure." I would go further and say that Windows is a virus target.

@NKnow:

You know, I'd have agreed with you on that "Linux is for geeks" thing a few years ago. But now I'm not so sure. I know the kind of user that you are talking about and have done tech support for them. With that kind of user, their needs are basic to begin with. Workng with email, office documents, photo editing, and web browsing probably covers over 90% of what they would ever use a computer for at their current level. And for stuff like that, I'm starting to think that having someone set up an Ubuntu or Linux Mint distro, fire-and-forget style, for them just might be enough.

@Goblin

And maybe those saps in the Royal armed forces weren't running of those things either Goblin.

And yes I'm very familiar with security. In fact I'm responsible for it at work. I manage firewalls, network controls, security lists, E-mail gateways and Antivirus. And I know that Linux systems are also vulnerable to exploits. If they weren't I wouldn't have to patch my ESX servers. For that matter I've patched UNIX AIX. And sure I could lolly gag around and pretend that those systems will NEVER be compromised because they're not windows. And the day I say that is the day I need to pack my bags and go sell tacos for a living.

@Goblin.

I mean, that ANY system attached to a PUBLIC network is vulnerable. Be it Microsoft or whatever. Thinking otherwise is foolhardy.

@NKnow :
WHO SAID;
Get serious Sam. Of course I didn't FORGET about linux.

Thumbdrives are the fastest growing vector for Malware. Someone who's not tech savvy enough to know that isn't tech savvy enough to use Linux.

Best to go with something that' easy to use, has a large user base and easily found support solutions.

That ain't Linux.
----------------------------------------------------
So Linux is hard to learn to use? Is this what you are saying? I use Linux, and very very seldom XP anymore. I found it even easier to learn and use than DOS and Windows. Never have I had a malware problem with it either. True, I may be a bit of a geek. But I have converted a few people who were not, and they had no problems with Linux. Mepis and PCLINUXOS are very easy disto's for new users coming from Windows.

So are you saying that sam is not smart enough (I disagree) to use Linux, but at the same time you say that Linux is hard? Doesn't make sense to me.

Don't know how many Windows computers I have had the pleasure of cleaning up the malware on. But from what I see, few are clean. If Joe Wilcox running Onecare, the Royal Navy cannot protects Windows, maybe, just maybe, there are not many that can out there.

@ NKnow:

Response to something you said while I was typing the other response:

Quote: "Best to go with something that' easy to use, has a large user base and easily found support solutions."

"Easy to use"

I've found Ubuntu and Linux Mint, among others, fairly easy to use, especially for the relatively simple use cases we are talking about here. We're just talking about simple day-to-day activities and office tasks, not compiling highly specialized scientific software from source. If they can't learn how to do those things on today's desktop-geared Linux distros, odds are they can barely do them on Windows, if at all.

"Large user base"

Well, last I checked Ubuntu has over 8 million users and growing. That may not be as large as the Windows userbase, but it is enough to get help from.

"Easily found support solutions"

Ubuntu forums. Or Google using the word "Ubuntu" and the problem. We are talking about a home user here, so I won't bring buying a support plan from Canonical into it. I've never used whatever support resources Apple provides so I can't comment on them, but I have yet to be disappointed with the helpfulness and friendliness of the Ubuntu community. Your millage may vary.

Microsoft were going in the right direction with security but it is sad to see them go back in the opposite direction with 7 and the off-by-default UAC.

Linux has way more security software than Windows. PaX, ExecShield, SELinux AppArmor etc etc. It is used to users being malicious against the system so it is much more hardened then Windows. Even a new Linux user knows not to run as root, yet almost every Windows user runs as Administrator.

P.S. DontKnow, you have stopped making sense. Thumb drives are easy to defend against. Just mount them as noexec. The bigger risk is people taking corporate data away, not bringing in exe's.

@NKnow :

Why not just come out and admit the fact that Windows has more malware written for it and a greater lack of security out of the box than any unix type or Linux system out there?

Yes, there is a lot of patching that can be done with Windows, using limited user accounts, as you and I discussed before in another topic. But the point is, Windows by default install, and this is for 99% of users, is a horrible piece of software to use on the internet, as it will quickly infect running as administrator.

BTW, my linux distro has a firewall.

Quote "And maybe those saps in the Royal armed forces weren't running of those things either Goblin."
-
So in the name of protecting the shortcomings of Microsoft products security, youre willing to cheapen the British Armed Forces are you?
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Maybe you need to be reminded that the men and women who are trusting their lives to equipment which is open to exploit are also risking their lives for both our countries (I believe you to be from either the UK or US, please correct me)
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Quote "And I know that Linux systems are also vulnerable to exploits."
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True, as you say that goes for any system. In the case of Linux, please give some examples (links) in respect of claims. Are you suggesting that Linux has even 1/100 the security issues a Windows platform does?
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Quote "And the day I say that is the day I need to pack my bags and go sell tacos for a living."
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Well at least you wouldnt be relying on a Microsoft product to do it. I think your taco selling idea is one that even a Windows exploit could not affect.

@Will.

Untill something doesn't work Will. Then what?

There are very few things that can go wrong with Windows or Mac that a simple goolgle search won't turn up at least something on. I can take my computer to any one of dozens of mom and pop shops and get support for 90% of what could go wrong with the OS. There are also tons of options for getting a Mac fixed.

Linux is still very much a do it yourself OS. And if you can't grasp the basics of securing a computer and you don't want to be a resident pro the Mac is the best option. Not that I haven't had a fair amount of problems with my Macs.

Unless I'm really speaking out of ignorance here, Nknow is right that no networked system is 100% secure. Didn't Fedora's servers get compromised a while back (and no, I have nothing against Fedora)?

My understanding is that fundamental design differences between Windows and Linux make Windows inherently less secure and more easily cracked, and that combined with the large number of Windows exploits in the wild compared to almost zero (if any?) Linux exploits in the wild makes Linux a much more secure choice. The same arguement could be made for Windows vs. OSX, I think.

Quote Nknow "Linux is still very much a do it yourself OS."
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Have you even used Linux?
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Name me a regcleaner, malware remover or virus checker for Linux.
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Not easy is it?
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Maybe thats because those issues for the average Linux user are something forgotten when they remove their Windows installation.
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In terms of DIY, I spent more time sorting out an XP platform than I ever have with Linux.

DontKnow - How vulnerable is a system which has a read-only system drive, a kernel with module loading disabled, a home partition mounted noexec with hourly snapshots and no services listening on the public IP?

I think its impossible to do anything to that machine that could not be fixed by a reboot and maybe a filesystem rollback. Maybe not impossible but a million miles away from what we have now with Windows.

@Goblin:

Dang Goblin you're really a card.

First of all I'm American. I could give a two @#%^& sandwich about the Royal armed forces.

Not every system that is compormised is a Windows system. And you have no idea what safegaurds they put into place to protect themselves. For all you know their security people could be a bunch of uninformed morons. (Look at the administration of George W. Bush.)

Don't tell me a guy like you is going to automatically believe someone is fit to do their job because of a title?

Rofl.

Oh &^*% it. You're right. Call them and tell them I said to turn off their Microsoft tech and go install something opensource. And oh. Don't bother to investigate the breach. Just promote the guys on whose watch this happend. Obviously it wasn't their fault.

The Brits, are our closest ally, the mother country that most of our ancestors came from. And the only country that in a major way supported us, rightly or wrongly, in Iraq. I for one would not want to say that the Royal Navy did not take all the right steps without knowing the facts first.

@billybob; "Thumb drives are easy to defend against. Just mount them as noexec."

Actually turning off auto insert in windows is not enough. The MS patch only prevents infection from internet infection. While some antivirus programs may catch the virus on the usb drive, some don't. Just mounting the usb drive in windows, I think, will infect the windows system. I believe this was in one of the links I posted a few days ago, but I might be wrong.

@Nknow

Maybe you were typing your response while I was typing my second response. I think these days Google is at least as reliable for Ubuntu as it is for Windows and OSX. And Goblin is probably also right in that some of the common problems of a Windows system are practically nonexistent on an OSX or Linux box.

And, what I'm about to say might be a stretch here, but lets assume that a user does need help with a nontrival problem. Unless the help is in person, the support person is going to have to talk them through a list of buttons to click on and menus to navigate. They could do the same for them under Linux. However, if the user is skilled enough to navigate their applications menu and click on the terminal icon, even if they are frightened of the scary command line, if they can copy and paste commands given to them by the support person or forum post, they may be able to solve their problem through a much simpler method.

A real Ally of the American people would have looked George Bush in the eye and said...

"You're making the same dumbassed mistake we made when we tried to conquer and rape these people generations ago."

Then Tony Blair would have Publicaly renounced Georgie for the mouth breathing moron that he is.

By the way when did this become a political forum?

"Actually turning off auto insert in windows is not enough."

Sorry, I was talking about Linux, I don't think it is that easy for Windows. Maybe Windows administrators could fill the USB slots with epoxy?

What they really need is a way to stop anything being executed from a user directory or foreign media. I am not sure if that exists, but Andre says it's really really secure so I am sure it is no problem. Their local mom and pop store could always point them in the right direction if they get stuck.

Quote Nknow "First of all I'm American. I could give a two @#%^& sandwich about the Royal armed forces."
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I hope that statement is the meter in which people judge your views.
-
It seems now you are getting a little angry. I would ask in the spirit of debate you adopt a less aggressive tone.
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Nknow, have you noticed, that nobody is "buying" what you say. Maybe you should consider what you say before you type? Who are you trying to convince? If its the posters here, Id say you'd failed and all youre doing now is cheapening yourself with comments like the one I highlighted.

"By the way when did this become a political forum?"

Just looking up the posts, it started here:

"First of all I'm American. I could give a two @#%^& sandwich about the Royal armed forces."

@billybob :

"Actually turning off auto insert in windows is not enough."

Sorry, I was talking about Linux, I don't think it is that easy for Windows. Maybe Windows administrators could fill the USB slots with epoxy?"
----------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I realized that after I posted. I like your epoxy idea for Windows usb drive. Perhaps glue and rubber bands are the idea behind the term, "Windows Security."

billybob :

"By the way when did this become a political forum?"..................

When the Windows fanboy decided he wanted to change the topic off the virus problems of Windows.

@Billybob.

I'd say a system you're describing could still be vulnerable if the target of the attack isn't the OS, but the Data stream between two end points. Something as simple as a protocol sniffer placed on a network that can reassemble unencrypted unsecured IP Packets would be enought to steal sensitive info.

Sure your system is fine. But your Credit card now belongs to teh haxxorez.

Am I saying that Windows is as secure as Linux or OSX? nope not by any stretch of the imagination. But corps and govermental organizations like the Military need to take extra steps no matter what underlying tech they use. They owe to ther customers and the tax payers that foot their bills.

@sam - How is Windows security political? Surely it is fairly relevant to Vista uptake in the enterprise?

"Sure your system is fine. But your Credit card now belongs to teh haxxorez."

No - Only if you send sensitive information over the internet unencrypted. Even non-technical people know to look for the lock before clicking submit.

Unless you are proposing that somehow you know how to decrypt an SSL transaction via a man in the middle attack? If that's the case then we are all in trouble. I have no idea what a protocol sniffer is, maybe you meant packet sniffer?

Riggggghttttt.

Some I'm they guy who Brought up Her Majesties uniformed morons....

Then jumped to their defense because they're to &*^(*^& stupid to take the steps needed to protect their defense systems.

It's hilarious.

Why don't you write them a letter chastising them for not using a more secure solution then attacking someone in a intardnet forum. But then they'd probably give yo about the same amout of credence I'm giving you. Which is to say none.

And that fanboy line? That goes both ways Linux nerd. The problem with you guys is that for your pet OS to be great everyone else has to suck.

Sad.

NKnow says;
"Am I saying that Windows is as secure as Linux or OSX? nope not by any stretch of the imagination.
----------------------------------------------------
Thank you, took a long time to get that out of you. Unsecure=Windows. Now, there is your reason why most users should be running Linux or Mac, instead of Windows. When M$ can get its act togeather and put out a system as secure as Linux then I will not rag on them about security. But you and I know thats not going happen anytime soon, is it? And guess what, XP users know that Windows Security is horrible, its what driving some to switch to other systems.

Now as far ar the Military taking extra steps, sure, but they would be better off starting with a more secure and stable system. All the antivirus programs and anti-malare programs that one runs in Windows, have false positives. When they do, these antivirus programs can delete files that could cause the Windows system to become unstable. Do we really want Windows on a nuclear submarine in anyones Navy?

"Thank you, took a long time to get that out of you."

He is blatantly drunk. He will deny it all in the morning.

No. I meant protocol sniffer.

Same thing anyways. IP packets... Internet Protocol.

And it has nothing to do with the internet and everything to do with a network device being of the same network as the target system and listning for traffic.

It's why Network access controls and WEP, WPA, technologies were put into place.

And for the record. Anything can be decrypted if enough time and resources are poured into the effort. No mean task I'm sure. But it's why RSA session security methods have been developed to regenerate Keys that secure VPN tunnels every few seconds.

There are other reasons for wanting free open source, and free Linux on Government computers. It sure would save a lot of taxpayers money.

Not to mention that publicly available information created by those computers should be stored in open, vendor-neutral formats with no potential patent restrictions on their use so that they are truly available to all of the public.

"Same thing anyways. IP packets... Internet Protocol."

No - Packets are bunches of data, protocols define how to send that data. There's not much point sniffing protocols, you want data.

"It's why Network access controls and WEP, WPA, technologies were put into place."

Those are for securing wireless access points not encrypting data to be sent over the internet. SSL is point-to-point so only the client machine and the server can see the decoded data. Even access points and routers cannot decrypt your credit card (that is a man in the middle attack).

"And for the record. Anything can be decrypted if enough time and resources are poured into the effort. No mean task I'm sure."

My credit card would have expired before anyone could decrypt today's encryption using today's technology. Most likely we would all be dead too.

Since we are discussing Windows Vista/7 here, one and the same thing, why not talk about the other big problem coming up in the future for those who embrace it.

Steve Ballmer has said that new Windows versions will come out every 2 1/2 to 3 years now. Seven is based on Vista, so uses the same drivers. When Seven comes out, can we expect the next version of Windows beyond Windows Seven to use the same drivers? I think not, as that will be another major release, it will most likely break many software applications, or worst, may not even be Windows based system at all. One thing is for sure, buying into the Windows Seven upgrade treadmill, may cost you a lot down the road when the new Windows come out in another 2 1/2 years time. With linux, the upgrade cycle might even be free with some distro's.

As I look into my crystal ball, I see lots of money being needlessly spent trying to keep up with the windows upgrade cycles, and the new windows, has no more value over the old windows (XP).

Isn't time to get the MONEYboy off your back and out of your Wallet? www.distrowatch.com download and try/use a free community distro today

chips

"@The Brits, are our closest ally, the mother country that most of our ancestors came from. And the only country that in a major way supported us, rightly or wrongly, in Iraq. I for one would not want to say that the Royal Navy did not take all the right steps without knowing the facts first."

If you are working for the American Consensus Bureau, I would strongly suggest to you to resign. The American populous is not "most of our ancestors came from." as you mindlessly and offensively put, from Britain. If you include the United Kingdom, those from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and finally England would raise the percentages up across the rich demographics of America by a few percentage points. Though, I will say in some areas, a microscopic view, there are much higher percentages, and thus may seem or in fact are the majority. Alas, making a statement, a statement that is obviously out of your league and equally thoughtless.

There are "other" Americans than just those that are from English origin.

I might add, you would find the information of the last consensus rather enlightening.

If you don't mind, perhaps you should stay with what you (think) you know, and leave the heavy stuff to people who think "big things."

One insult deserve another.

sam :wrote

"There are other reasons for wanting free open source, and free Linux on Government computers. It sure would save a lot of taxpayers money."
_________________________________________________

How about the Department of Defense as a good example?

"The Defense Department has ushered in a new era of government involvement in Open Source software by opening Forge.mil, the DoD equivalent of SourceForge."

http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2009/02/01/defense-department-sets-up-open-source-repository/

An American.

Thanks for pointing that out. I think you mean, the word "Census."

You're right though, that was a mindless thing to say. Also, America has no "Motherland." The guy is obviously British or an American only through the graces of citizenship though naturalization.

I'm sticking with my first guess. Next the thoughtless twit will say we have a "fatherland too."

Hey, I'm just saying.

Jesus Billy.

Some people call it a Packet Sniffer.

Some people call it a protocol Sniffer

You are familiar with the idea of two words having the same meaning when use in a certain context right.

And IP packets.... INTERNET PROTOCOL PACKETS

Damn.... thick.

@Goblin

Btw.... Gobby.

I just peeped your anti Andre Da Costa blogs out.

The fact that you'd spend so much time and effort to bash some dude on the internet makes me pity you.

You have more issues than a Magazine rack. I think you need to step AWAY from the Linux box and seek a good therapist.

Isn't it amazing, when these paid softies can't win a debate, they start throwing insults every time.

Like clockwork.

But it also seems to me that a timely, direct answer of a couple of sentences could have ended the whole laptop thing rather quickly.

Last defense of an idiot.

Anyone that disagrees with you is a shill.

Like clockwork.

Oh and I stand by my statement.

Anyone too dumb too keep up on security information and then proceed to delay installing a patch that's marked CRITICAL. (with very detailed information on what the threat is) In other words install This NOW and not LATER. Shouldn't be allowed to manage computers for a Nation's Military. Or hell even for a frikken fish and chip franchise.

@NKnow:
You and I have had some discussions before I think about Windows security, and you seem like someone with above average knowledge.

However, I have to wonder, why you feel the need to use profanity in your posts so often, and to resort to name calling? Surely you must realize that this distracts from your message and the discussion.

Oh I dunno chip.

When peoply get all Jiggy with the Jingoism like Gobby just did I tend to get a bit miffed.

Like it or not the good admins in the RAF were administering windows systems and failed to PATCH the things When A Patch was clearly available.

I could care less what they do for a living this was clearly dereliction of duty. You'll note that term "dereliction of duty." That's what the Military calls it. I know this because I served in the US Navy for upwards of 15 years.

And for the record there's PLENTY of vitriol to go around on this forum.

But take heart good friend. This is my last post.

I will leave you guys with one word of advice before I go though.

You'll attract no one to the cause of Open source with insults, or constantly calling peoples motives into question when they say something less than damning about an operating system. It's software. Some will use it. Some won't.

Wether you guys want to believe this or not... I could give a damn, there are security standards and practices that any Systems Engineer or security Analyst must know and follow if he wants to keep himself/herself fed. And leaving vulnerable systems unpatched and not controlling endpoint behavior via simple and easily implemented group policies to control the behavior of USB attached storage devices# is a good way to end up in the unemployment line. Someone who ignores such practices is a moron in my estimation wether he wears a spiffy uniform or not. Thats true no matter what flag they serve under. If this had happend under my watch rest assured heads would roll.

NKnow says:
Anyone that disagrees with you is a shill........

Now where have we heard that before. I know, every windows fanboy that comes here new says that right away. Its almost like they were all the same user. Could it be, naw, it must just be coincidence. Haha!

@ Nknow:

Just so you know, that "like clockwork" statement wasn't directed at you. Nor did I once call you a shill during our discussion. And I agreed with you keeping up on security being important regardless of OS.

The clockwork statement was more of a general comment about this forum. Memories from the uglier than usual episode we had a few weeks ago where some likely true MS shills impersonated users, posted under multiple handles from the same IP to bolster their case, and engaged in rather inappropriate personal attacks and insults against anyone that brought a non-Microsoft viewpoint to the table.

@NKnow:
"And leaving vulnerable systems unpatched and not controlling endpoint behavior via simple and easily implemented group policies to control the behavior of USB attached storage devices# is a good way to end up in the unemployment line. Someone who ignores such practices is a moron in my estimation wether he wears a spiffy uniform or not."
----------------------------------------------------
And here is where I mostly sort of agree, and somewhat disagree with you. First as some of you know, I have been in the malware/repairing business. But usually only for users and very small businesses. I never called these folks with their Malware infested computers, Morons, as you have in the above paragraph. Although to be fair to you, NKnow, I think you are referring to System Administrators, not regulars home users, I hope.

I don't see the home users with malware infested computers, as being Morons. In fact, I tell them its not their fault. At least the first time they bring me the computer, LOL. But in fact, as we talked about in a previous post, Windows is not setup to use proper security, by default. So I do blame M$ for this malware problem, instead of the "morons." A true limited user account, not a UAC which is different, should not be such a hard thing for Microsoft to setup by default, on any windows installation, should it?

As far as the Royal Navy, you and I don't all of what they did or did not do, as far as patches, etc. But one thing we do know, conflicker is now up to about 20 million infected and still gaining, thats a lot of windows "morons," out there, by your count.

Disclaimer: I am not calling anyone a moron. In fact, those who have windows malware infected computers, its not entirely your fault, as Microsoft did an extremely poor job of setting up the security, or should I say lack of security, by default. Linux does not suffer from this problem.

@ chips:

Quote:
"NKnow, I think you are referring to System Administrators, not regulars home users, I hope"

That's the way I read it. He's talking about trained Systems Engineers or Security Analysts in context, not normal home users. If those trained professionals don't follow at least basic standard security practices, then you can call them whatever you want, but they probably aren't doing their jobs well.

@Will:
Yes I agree, but I was trying to get NKnow to look at the windows malware problem from a different prospective. That of the home user, who is not anywhere remotely as knowledgeable as he is, or us. After having dealt with the windows malware problems of home users, I find few that will be able to protect their windows computers. Very few. They would be better off with Linux or Mac to surf and get their emails.

@everyone:
So why do I promote Linux over Windows? Why do I link to negatives about the XBox360 hardware? Could it be because of the poorly designed hardware in the XBox360? Could it be because of the horrible lack of security in Windows by default, that causes so much pain for windows internet users?
Or is it because as Andre would have you believe that I am just a linux fanboy? True I use Linux, but I converted from XP, because I tired of the endless virus and malware scans (maintance) and instability of Windows. Free is not a bad thing either, but even if I had to pay more for Linux than Windows, I would. Its a better, more stable, far far far safer product. So know everyone knows my motives.

@chips b malroy;

"...Motherland..." What about Spain, France, and Mexico. Let's not forget the African continent.I think America's roots also come from the contributions of these countries in the history of America.

I have to agree with my fellow Americans that we are much bigger, and better for it. We are more diversified than any other nation on the planet because of our wonderful diversified mix of many nationalities.

I am assuming you didn't mean to come across as "mindless" but I agree, perhaps this is something you shouldn't discuss.

Remember, if it were not for the Americans, whatever color and creed we are, Britain would be speaking German, "heir chips."

DoD staff need help with security

http://www.itexaminer.com/dod-staff-need-help-with-security.aspx

"Downadup is a really advanced worm - the likes of which we haven't seen in many years," Shavlik CTO Eric Schultze told IT Examiner. "Once a single machine is infected in a corporate environment, it can spread itself to all of the other corporate machines, whether they've been patched or not. Although some reports say the worm is a dud, I believe that it's simply 'sleeping' and may be woken up at a future date to execute some set of evil instructions," said Schultze.
The worm's behaviour thus far leads us to believe that it is either a distraction to mask more nefarious malware, or it's lying dormant until some trigger causes it to unleash its potential," explained Hartline. "[Downadup] has circumvented firewalls, anti-virus software and other traditional security measures. And while some NAC solutions can help ensure systems are patched prior to gaining network access, that clearly isn't enough in this case."

Almost forgot what I was going to include in my comments.

First off, I am sorry to see "Nknow" go. It was nice to hear other perspective views on things. Maybe Joe Foolcox can get a grip on this site and eliminate the Linux and Microsoft shills here. I like this site much better when Mary Jo was running it. There seemed to be more controlled, arguments on both side were held in better light.

I agree, the Open Source people here, sam, chips, marco and goblin should strive on being better witnesses for alternative operating systems, just to name a few.

It's obvious that they, any of them failed to point out as to what exactly caused the British Military window based system to go down. But rather spend time pointing out as if was a Microsoft Problem, and in my perspective, attempting to blame Microsoft for brining them down all by themselves.

That is asinine. Anyone, group, terrorists in mind can bring anything down if they have enough resources, time and hatred.

It is obvious that Microsoft has found the issues and offered a patch, a solution for whatever it was or is. Security is always an ongoing issue, no matter the operating system.

The major problem of any operating system or application lies between the keyboard and the chair. That will always be the biggest downfall of security on any system under the sun.

If I were to base my opinion of Linux on the characters here that are so desperately attempting to "pastorate" their reasons to use Linux, they fail severely -- Pathetic gentlemen, pathetic.

Nknow, I am a guy that appreciates different points of views. Though, I've been using Linux for nearly 12 years now. I've seen Linux grow in quality and as a code writer in C and C++ loves my Linux community and made many friends along the way, on both sides, and because of it, I am a better person for it.

Please do not think that these characters here are the sum of all Linux users. They're far from it.

Again, sorry that you feel you have to go.

Quote "It's obvious that they, any of them failed to point out as to what exactly caused the British Military window based system to go down. But rather spend time pointing out as if was a Microsoft Problem"
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The point is we dont know, but since their systems run off Microsoft products, you can hardly blame 3rd party software can you?
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Quote "Nknow, I am a guy that appreciates different points of views. Though, I've been using Linux for nearly 12 years now. I've seen Linux grow in quality and as a code writer in C and C++ loves my Linux community and made many friends along the way, on both sides, and because of it, I am a better person for it."
-
I am unsure what point you are trying to make. Where have I stated anything untrue? Where have I insulted? I seem to remember a poster called dave on an old thread with a similar style to yours saying to me he was just wasting my time by posting nonsense, heres the link
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http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/marketing/can_microsoft_sell_value_in_tough_times.html
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Im sure its all a coincidence and youre a completely different person.
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Quote "Again, sorry that you feel you have to go."
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Dont play the martyr, we know they wont go. They will be reading these comments and probably appear under a different handle. The only reason Nknow is disapearing is because the FUD they were trying to apply to everyday users has been exposed as not being relevant, and countered quite nicely with truths on Linux security.
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When you say remove the Linux shills, I presume you mean me, when you say remove the Microsoft shills, who are you reffering to?

Moving on from the sillyness in order to start debate again, it appears that there are rumours of an Xbox mobile device:
-
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10153264-17.html
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Quote ". According to its latest quarterly filing, Zune platform revenue decreased $100 million, or 54 percent, during the last quarter. Considering iPod unit sales were up 3 percent during the same quarter and Apple enjoyed $3.3 billion in revenue, I'm not convinced Microsoft's plan to offer new Zune models is a good idea."
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Havent Microsoft already tried to compete with Nintendo?

Microsoft had issued a security update for the vulnerability back in September 2008 which is used by Conficker worm to infect PCs. Organizations like RAF and Navy and even average users do not apply updates to their PC. So they got infected.

People say Windows is insecure, but they themselves make Windows unsecured by turning off UAC and disabling automatic updates.

They talk about shifting to Unix and Unix-like systems like Mac OS X (XNU: Xnu is Not Unix) and Linux (GNU: Gnu is Not Unix). There they will also have to face confirmation boxes like UAC with even password fields.

Quote "Organizations like RAF and Navy and even average users do not apply updates to their PC. So they got infected."
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Agree, but then you would think the military would have consultants in place to keep these issues in mind? I dont think the military would leave it to chance nor be ignorant of such issues.
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quote "There they will also have to face confirmation boxes like UAC with even password fields."
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Agree completely, however its hardly as intrusive as that of Vista, is it? The problem that is reported though with Vista, seems to highlight exploits even when users follow the guidelines.

Andre Da Costa :wrote

"Linux is 0.83% and dying."
---------------------------------------------------

Points to consider

I guess you didn't read Joe's article. At the top of the page, in the Enterprise Deployed Operating Systems by Forrester Research, Linux has 2 % in North America.

_____________

So If Vista is successful, then how come only 10% of Enterprise Deployed Operating Systems by Forrester Research(according to the graphs above), have adapted Vista? This is embarrassing to say the least for Redmond.

_____________

Here we have a World Class Company with Billions at its disposal, with the best talent pool money can buy, with a multimillion dollar advertising budget, and a household name.

_____________

And why is their flagship OS (Vista) only five times stronger than Linux which doesn't have 1/10th of the resources that Redmond has?

______________

And why would ANY company even consider Vista now? Now that the rumors are rampant for a Windows 7 release for October 2009.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://vista.blorge.com/2009/02/02/windows-7-rumored-for-october-thanks-to-streamlined-schedule/

"Reports peg Windows 7’s likeliest release date as October. The 2009 release appears to have become possible thanks to an accelerated production schedule with the current beta edition expected to be the last stage before a ‘finished’ version.

The timeline comes from a blog from Lotta Bath of Microsoft’s Partner Team in Sweden. Bath says the expected release schedule now is a release candidate in April and then a release to manufacturing in the last quarter of 2009, dates apparently confirmed by Windows product manager Michael Bohlin."

_________________

So are companies in a position to upgrade TWICE in the same year? That is even if they can afford to upgrade at all. And that is even if they buy or upgrade their computers to meet the requirements of Windows 7.

__________________

My company is using XP Pro, it chokes on the 128 MB RAM that it runs on. Is Windows 7 going to run faster on that? Our company only buys refurbished computers with XP Pro, somehow I don't think our company is the only one who buys refurb computers.

BTW Our company has a Unix server with XP Pro (and Windows 98 ! ) on its computers. We have a Unix server so we are not stuck with Client Access Licenses to pay.

Hi Ralph,
I think we will see alot of companies with that opinion.
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I have reservations in regards to beta versions of any product, however lets say that RC Win 7 is just as good as the beta.
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Who will be in a position to upgrade?
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Enterprise? I wouldnt think at the moment ANY company is willing to invest in upgrades, when it seems the major concerns at the moment are trying to retain as many staff as they can whilst still saying solvent.
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Home users may be willing, but how many people are hanging on for a release of Windows 7 when by all accounts they seem very happy with XP? Will they have other things in which to spend money on?
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I think this is a very dangerous time for Microsoft. Whilst we can argue all day over Linux V Windows, fact is Linux doesnt cost anything, and is hardly a risk for someone to try. If that someone finds themselves comfortable with Linux, then thats even less incentive to purchase Win 7 (IMO) and another lost customer.
-
Despite 360 being the best of the three consoles (IMO) I think it represents Microsofts failure to penetrate (viably) other markets and diversify. It seems now the last vestiges of hope are with Windows 7 being a huge success.
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In between all the sillyness and dubious posting here, I have repeatedly said that products will speak for themselves. I am even willing to go along with the statement that Win 7 will be very much like the beta thats floating around at the moment. But will this be enough to (IMO) rescue Microsoft from a series of "nearly there" products and very bad press?
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Microsoft has got other issues. The Vista figures (IMO) include those systems sold with the OS. It does not take into account the amount of people who have gone back to XP. A quick check of any IT related forum or games (since its reported that Vista is a slower performer) shows how many people have gone back to XP.
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Im sure there are many cases of Vista being stable for users, but the point was, in terms of performance and compat, its hardly the upgrade to XP it was touted as in the beginning. The performance charts of XP v Vista show where the better performance is, and whilst some may say this isnt an issue, Id suggest any customer who upgraded from XP to Vista should expect a better experience. The rich features of Vista are meaningless since all of them can be achieved in XP (either natively or by 3rd party software) and if thats the reason why Vista is supposed to be the upgrade to XP, then its not surprising Vista has had a bad time in the press.

I dont put much faith in figures, however over on Linux.com, the following is reported:
-
"The bottom line is that Linux continues to thrive, and Microsoft -- well, Microsoft continues to do what it does best. Linux improves and grows its user base day-in and day-out, and Microsoft dishes out deceptions. Note to Galli, Peter Judge, Stan Beer, and all the other pundits echoing the meme that Linux is losing: based on the facts -- which show 93% growth for Red Hat versus 18% for Microsoft over the past two years -- if any company is getting close to hitting the wall, it's not a Linux vendor. "
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But then thats just another opinion, like any of the pro-MS comments here. Its up to the reader to make their own decision of whereabouts the facts are.

"People say Windows is insecure, but they themselves make Windows unsecured by turning off UAC and disabling automatic updates"

You realise that Microsoft turned off UAC for Windows 7? The reason most companies disable automatic updates is because it often breaks their software. The reason personal users disable it is because it breaks their software or they are using a pirated version.

"There they will also have to face confirmation boxes like UAC with even password fields."

Yes, but most settings do not need root privs to change. You normally only need to be root to update software.

Unix like operating systems log in as a normal user then elevate to root when needed. Windows logs you in as admin and then degrades you to a standard user token unless you click OK to the UAC (which everyone always does). It is much safer to require a password if it does not happen every day. It is far too easy to just click yes without thinking. Most users cannot be trusted to have root privs anyway so normally updating etc would be left to the administrator.

NKnow, you didn't describe the conficker fiasco accurately. Conficker propagates using two methods:
1. as a worm via the vulnerable Windows server service,
2. as a virus via removable storage.

Regarding propagation method #1, I fully agree with you. Microsoft had already released a patch, there's no excuse if IT failed to apply it.

Regarding method #2, Microsoft released incorrect information on work-arounds, which left computer networks vulnerable even after following Microsoft advice. What is more, automatically running executables from removable storage is a stupid thing to do since the Win95 days, one would expect MS to learn from the older virus propagation techniques on Windows.

Conficker illustrates once more what's wrong with Microsoft.

We still have folks repeating the lie that GNU/Linux has 0.83% share.

TFA includes a graphic that shows GNU/Linux is on 4% of desktops in business.

Business tends to be very conservative/protective of the business. They have clung to that other OS for many years because they could rely on it not getting much worse than it was already. Vista shook that confidence. Some businesses still cling to pre-XP OS versions. These folks are not going to rush to 7 on the basis of it being new. These folks are not going to rush to Vista as a migration route to 7. They will wait until the early adopters do not crash and burn with 7. The long wait between XP and 7 will give many time to think about GNU/Linux.

The big advantage of GNU/Linux compared to Vista or 7 is that GNU/Linux gets along well with XP. Both are known quantities not jerked around by the whims of the sales team at M$. It may well be easier for 80% of clients to migrate to GNU/Linux rather than Vista or 7. Previous reports showed many were looking at anything but M$ for an upgrade. Further, GNU/Linux will likely work with present hardware very well for a few more years.

GNU/Linux has one more huge advantage over Vista/Vista II. GNU/Linux is even better on thin clients than on thick because of the file caching/sharing that that other OS cannot do. Folks who upgrade the old hardware to new fanless thin clients will avoid a lot of capital expense and get reduced maintenance and longer lifetime. In tight economic times, these are huge advantages if new hardware must be acquired. They can even run XP in virtual machines to keep a few special apps running.

There will not be a clean migration to 7. Many will go to GNU/Linux to get off the Wintel treadmill. How many "many" will be is not known but it will be significant.

I use Vista SP1 Preinstalled, and it works just fine. Apparently, Win7 will work even "finer". (grin) It seems that Vista's most vocal critics, are people who don't use it, and therefore don't know anything about it.

@ VistaSP1Works:

Quote: "It seems that Vista's most vocal critics, are people who don't use it, and therefore don't know anything about it."

Judging by some of the perennial comments thrown around here and elsewhere, it would appear that the same could be said of Linux's most vocal critics.

Quote VistaSP1Works "It seems that Vista's most vocal critics, are people who don't use it, and therefore don't know anything about it."
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I think you'll find that most if not all Linux users DO use (or have extensively used Windows) I develop software and am caught in the .net at work(sic) on both Vista and XP platforms. I have been with Windows since 3.1 and although in the last year my home machines dont have a Microsoft platform on them I still use Windows extensively at work.
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From my brief knowledge of posters here, I believe Billybob is also a coder on Windows platforms (yet is a Linux user), I believe Chips uses XP at work (also uses Linux), and I very much doubt you will find a Linux user who doesnt still use in some capacity Windows.
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Although if any Linux users here want to disagree and let us know that they have never used Windows, then its important that the fact be stated here. As the basis of me stating the impartiality of Linux users opinion is on the fact that we have used both platforms.
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I dont think its unfair to say, the vast majority of Windows users have NEVER used Linux.
So whos opinion is more balanced?

But the Linux-lovers have a predisposition to hate Windows and that has been made quite obvious.

@Goblin,
Earlier in this series, Andre claims that "Windows Vista on 15 million systems".

But in the previous blog entry's comments, Andre claims that "People world wide (over 200 million) are enjoying the benefits and rich experiences Windows Vista and Windows Live delivers, a platform that delivers real value and choice."

Andre is a wet-behind-the-ears little kiddie who thinks that screaming and shouting and stomping his feet will continue to allow him to be heard and get what he wants. It may have worked when he was growing up, but it's not as successful in the real world.

And Nknow must stand for "Not Know" because he doesn't fully understand some stark facts: 1. Google is a popular on-line help facility for Windows, Mac, AND (especially) Linux in all flavors. 2. Google is powered by Linux, meaning that the Microsoft Windows on-line help facility is based on Linux and not Windows.

Now I know exactly why some people are getting fed up with you, Goblin. You have the unmitigated audacity to spout truth and reason and expose lies and contradictions.

Just as light is hated and feared by cockroaches (which exist) and vampires (which are mythical), so is truth and logic hated and feared by Windows users (which exist) and claimants of Windows reliability (which is mythical).

It's rather educational to read these posts. A good way to judge the slipping fortunes of a platform is by the fear and panic that are shown by its adherents.

Cheers!

Ridley says :
"But the Linux-lovers have a predisposition to hate Windows and that has been made quite obvious."
--------------------------------------------------
Or could it be that some of us are consumer advocates that promote Linux, or Mac, instead of Windows, because of 1. the horrible security and malware problems of Windows. As someone who has cleaned up many many windows infected computers, I can tell you that Windows by default, is not safe compared to other systems. Windows users are in pain caused by malware. Why not help them out and suggest the better way?

Also, if enough people complain about the horrible by default lack of security in Windows, maybe, MS will eventually do something strong about it. If not, then more Windows users switching to Mac and Linux, might convince MS to fix windows security.

There are of course, many other reason to use Linux.

I also think that if Microsoft were to do things to greatly fix the default security in windows, that Linux users would be happy to see that. I know I would be.

By that I mean setting up limited users accounts and hiding the administrator account by default in windows. Removing Internet Exploder from Windows, which would also get rid of ActiveX. Removing other viral magnet from Windows, such as Outlook, Media player, and MS Messinger. These would be improvement to windows security.

The price of Windows needs to come down a whole lot as well, when it cannot compare with a free system.

Ridley, I really dont like repeatedly challenging you, but if your comment of "But the Linux-lovers have a predisposition to hate Windows and that has been made quite obvious." was aimed at me then I have this to say.
-
I distinctly remember saying on MS-Watch that if Windows 7 turns out to be great, even I would champion it. What about my XP comments? Ive done more to highlight the benefits of XP on this forum than most pro-ms supporters.
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I can link the Microsoft watch threads if you like and I strongly resent the implication (if aimed at me) that just because its Windows I will bash it. Sure I will bash MS tactics (when I believe they are underhanded) but since my ethos of "right tools for right job" I have stuck by since I started posting here, I will repeat:
-
I am constantly trying out new O/S's new ways of thinking, not only as a hobby but as a search for an O/S or software that is better than the one I have at the moment. If you like Im looking for the ultimate. Whilst I love my Linux experience and find it caters for everything I need, I am not stupid enough to think that there wont be either a better distro or platform in the future. That is why I keep up to date with as many as possible (look at my site with the feature on AROS) During my computing journey, I have, (and in some cases still do) use:
-
XP , Vista, TinyXP, AROS, AmigaOS, FreeBSD, Puppy, Ubuntu, Gentoo, NimbleX, Fedora, OpenSUSE, MacOS.
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That was just a small selection. Ive settled on Gentoo/Ubuntu, because at the moment out of all others Ive tried, IMO they are the best (of any platform). Thats not to say in the future that wont change. I would say Im "digitally diverse" and if anything its Windows users who have a predisposition to hate Linux since IMO the majority of them havent used it.
-
I havent championed Vista, because I cant. I didnt get the "feature rich" product you mention, I certainly didnt get it at home and definately not at work. I do not have any "great memories" from Vista, nor does anyone at work (who still has to suffer) Thats my experience, others may differ, however since Im given no "incentives" to champion anything, Im certainly not going to pretend I had a good experience when I didnt.
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I challenge Vista, as I say I cant comment on 7 because its not out and Ive never used it (something I repeatedly said) but Ridley, you dont strike me as someone who has used Gentoo, so how can you seek to say I wouldnt have a balanced view (if indeed you are)

@Philosopher
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Thank you for your kind words of "Now I know exactly why some people are getting fed up with you, Goblin. You have the unmitigated audacity to spout truth and reason and expose lies and contradictions."
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However, as I repeatedly say I would not want anyone to take my (or anyone elses) word for anything. I sincerely hope there is nobody out there who hangs on my every word and follows everything I say blindly.
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Regardless of what I say in my posts, regardless of the links I or anyone else give, I always say: Research research research. I am happy to stand by my opinions/words but I want people to reach conclusions from their own research and not a single one person on the net.
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I am only human, my opinion is my opinion.
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If anyone is in a position to download a liveCD Linux distro (and is currently using Vista), Id ask them to indulge in a little test for me as an example of performance in Linux. Just have a play with it, and ask yourself, if this is booting off a CD, whats its like on a proper install? Does this look like a second class OS to you? Like I say I stand by my words. If you get an oportunity to, try it.
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As ive said before, I refuse to link my site here (again for reasons of encouraging own research) however I know many people have found it. If anyone wants any 1 to 1 help (via email) in using Linux, Id be more than happy to supply it. (of course it goes without saying free of charge)

Oh you are so humble Goblin. And I too encourage anyone and everyone to download a Linux LiveCD. That will definitely make a Windows users appreciate Vista! So, go ahead all you Windows users. Download a Linux LiveCD and tell us how you like it in comparison to Vista (or 7).

I however do find it a useful utility for gathering files on a dying hard drive, or for moving or copying files if you don't have an O.S. loaded.

But as for a desktop O.S., don't fool yourself. Linux never made it for a reason. And it won't going into the future. Users want and love the Windows O.S. with its ease of use, compatability and rich user interface. Linux as a desktop O.S. has never an never will be relevant.

Quote "Oh you are so humble Goblin."
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Why thank you kind sir.
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Quote "rich user interface"
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Havent you forgotten "happy times" "great memories"
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Ive already said which systems Ive used/or am using. By your "But as for a desktop O.S., don't fool yourself." are you suggesting that I am telling lies, or simply that after trying all the ones I listed, for some unknown reason I stuck with Linux and am fooling myself into believing its the best one for me.
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Quote "Linux as a desktop O.S. has never an never will be relevant. "
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Well, its certainly relevant to you isnt it?
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You are (as per your previous revelation) making a buck from selling it to people on a tight budget. Forgetting about the fact that you are infact helping take potential customers away from Windows, I wonder, do you say all this to the people you sell your Linux systems to?
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and Ridley after your kind comment to me, I couldnt possibly go without saying: I like you too. It was very kind to call me humble. Im sure you can be too if you wanted.

Ridley,
why do you promote MS Windows? A system that so lacks default security? A system that has an 80% infection rate of malware among home users?

And why use the wording of "Users want and love the Windows O.S. with its ease of use, compatability and rich user interface?" That does sound like Andre. A regular user would never say that sentence, but Andre would, or someone that wanted us to think he is Andre.

@Chips
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Im wondering if Ridley isnt actually a pro-linux poster, trying with the best of intentions to cheapen Windows. Afterall whatever he says he's already admitted to selling Linux, and the fact he likes to use the "feature rich" comments in the plenty.
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If thats the case, Id ask them to stop. Since we do not want to stoop to the level that certain pro-ms posters have. (IMO)
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If not, then please Ridley, see if you can get around to answering the questions in the previous post.

Goblin says:
"Im wondering if Ridley isnt actually a pro-linux poster, trying with the best of intentions to cheapen Windows."
----------------------------------------------------
I find that hard to believe. But either way, the result is the same, true. While doubtful still, we are agreed that we don't need or would ever want to use this type of behavior.

Still the question stands about is Ridley Andre?
So, I ask that question of both andre and Ridley.

@Chip
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The reason I believe that maybe Ridley is a Linux user, is because he has made no effort at all to sound serious. Lets see:
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1. He claims Linux is second class, but is happy to sell it to people on a tight budget (isnt that many people at the moment?)
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2. In selling his linux systems he is infact taking users away from Windows (which he apparently supports) why would he do this?
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3. He uses all the favorites of Andre "Feature rich" and IMO uses them in such a way as to cheapen his own view.
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4. He's claimed on another thread here that you need to compiler to play a music CD in Linux. Only someone with no Linux knowledge would claim that.
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I dont think Ridley is stupid so I believe his reasons for being here are to put obvious holes in his own views so that we can highlight them.
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I dont believe someone with an agenda of promoting Microsoft would leave themselves so open, infact I dont believe any reader here would.
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Just my opinion.

@Goblin:
Good points, I do believe that Ridley is a fake, of sorts. Highly doubt he sells linux, or has much experience with it. Softies love to tell us how much experience they have with linux, and then, like you said come out with a statement like compiling this and that. Its a big clue that you are dealing with someone less than knowledgeable about GNU/Linux. And while he sounds like Andre, in this case, I too have my doubts.

Notice a common thread among all the fakes, they will not talk about the windows malware problems to any great extent. NKnow being somewhat of an exception to the rule, and after he had to finally agree that windows was not as secure as linux, he left. LOL

@Chips
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Quote "Notice a common thread among all the fakes, they will not talk about the windows malware problems to any great extent."
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Maybe they would have disagreed with you if they could, but their Windows system went down with another attack of malware and they cant get back online until they have cleaned their machines?

For the record, the prize goes to chips. He is far closer to figuring me out than Goblin. chips can tell by my writing, I am definitely not Andre. He is also correct that I do not have a lot of deep experience with Linux. I have enough to take an old P.C. and breathe new life into it with Ubuntu. And a basic Ubuntu install will do most/all of the things and have most/all of the software a user on a budget would need. And I do not make a living "selling Linux". I have configured maybe a dozen old P.C.'s and sold most to family or friends for just a small token price. I have sold 3 of those through classified advertising locally. It's just a side project, a hobby.

It's not a hit against those I have configured Linux boxes to state it is a second-rate, fringe, budget O.S. They understand that. They either want a cheap secondary P.C. or times are tight and it's all they can afford right now. But I would bet that nearly all of them will buy a Windows P.C. once finances permit.

Windows is what brings your P.C. alive, becoming a multimedia springboard. And it is so easy to find and install software to perform just about any task. It is the de facto business platform too. It is the O.S. that business software is built around.

Goblin would say that I am taking market share from Windows. Ha. The small number of Linux P.C.'s I have configured don't matter, and even then, without them, those people would just have gone without. At least they are able to do the basics.

Regarding Windows security... I haven't had any problems with Windows security. But because Windows has an absolute commanding majority of users, it will be THE target. Use common sense and set up your P.C. properly. It's not that hard.

@Ridley,
Good points and well-reasoned. Yet, I still got a chuckle from your post, because for the same reasons I came to opposite conclusions in some cases.

About 16 years ago, I removed AIX PS/2 from a 386-based PC and installed OS/2 (required by the company I worked for). It felt as if someone had ripped out the 386 and installed a slow 286. And at that time, Windows was up to version 3.0 and fared even worse. So much for "coming alive". R.I.P.

(Yes, Windows 3.0 and then 3.1 ran many more cool graphics and word processing tools. It was a total 3-legged dog, but it did run Corel and WordPerfect and was therefore a useful 3-legged dog. But not really alive. Just barely breathing is more like it. Though it let a few of us see the demise of OS/2 many, many years before IBM's brain trust ever began to get a glimmer of a clue.)

A year ago, I finally got tired of how slow XP was on the 4-year-old Dell laptop my company lends me. It was the installation of Ubuntu that brought that Dell laptop alive.

Ubuntu with xine, vlc, MoviePlayer will play more formats than out-of-the-box Windows Media Player. Including commercial DVDs. OOo could read as many Word doc files as Word could, and produced prettier and more solid documents of its own. Inkscape is just WAY COOL at any price. k3b burns CDs and DVDs with a friendlier GUI than Nero. Using an incantation (OK, this wasn't GUI based), I can browse Windows network shares as if they were Linux filesystems. Printing is as easy as falling off a log. And all from the default Ubuntu repositories. No effort at all.

But you're right: Windows XP is for most people because it's familiar and it runs more of their applications (as a rule). Ubuntu can satisfy the majority of casual users, but they'd have to face an unfamiliar environment and learn some new habits.

Which is what I believe is the root cause of most of Vista's bad press. It's pretty much as different from XP as Ubuntu is. I know of one person who moved up to Vista when he replaced his older PC and never has once asked for help using it. But then again, he flies his own turboprop airplane, so he's not exactly the average technology neophyte.

Vista and Windows 7 would have been still-borne if not for Microsoft's vast market pull, PR machine, and lobbying efforts. It's not which one is better, but rather which one has untold hundreds of billions behind it.

But Microsoft doesn't run on market share. It runs on ever-increasing revenues. Microsoft has too much money to actually fail. Yup. Housing prices will never stop their upward climb; people gotta have a place to live. Wall Street will never slow its upward climb; the risk is spread globally so there's no single point of failure.

Ridley:
"Regarding Windows security... I haven't had any problems with Windows security. But because Windows has an absolute commanding majority of users, it will be THE target. Use common sense and set up your P.C. properly. It's not that hard."
----------------------------------------------------
Really then, why are 80% of Windows users computers infected? Are they all without "common sense," as you put it, or is it true that Windows is setup by default wide open without any real security?

Question: How many of those ubuntu computers you sold came back with malware on them? The correct anwser is zero. Installing ubuntu is no big deal, how much simplier could it be, it doesn't make anyone an expert if they can install a distro and sell a computer. And as far as you not having any fun with Linux or Ubuntu, thats because, most likely, you really never went any further than that is my guess. Next time for a beginning, try Linux Mint, its ubuntu with all the bells and whistles, dvd play, mp3 play, avi, etc. You be happier with that, although you can install it in ubuntu, if you want to learn. BTW, I do not use Ubuntu myself, but have tried it.

Now, my guess is that you and NKnow, Draoi, and a few others are all one and the same. Not that it really matters. Andre is the smart one, at least he gets paid one way or another. But on the other hand Dr. Doug knows his networking and more about fixing computers. Then there are the VSCY proponents, could be one of them too. My money would be on Doug, as he has additional talent as a writer, and can change his style. Not that Andre is not a smart intelligent person as well, he blogs everywhere, so he has writing shills. Not only that but its obvious that he knows MS Office inside and out. I also noticed that about the same time that Dr. Doug's Malware Truck died (business failure) that the trolling and impersonations began. Timimg is everything, or is that location?

Linux is not Fun for you, because you wanted more, and did not take the time to learn more. You are an advanced user, or power user, who needed to go to the community forums, in your case the ubuntu community forum, and learn. There still time to do that, they are a good bunch there.

Re: "Using an incantation (OK, this wasn't GUI based), I can browse Windows network shares"

I must clarify that the incantation is a one-line script that mounts the Windows network shares using the SMB filesystem (smbfs). After that, Ubuntu's version of Explorer, and indeed any File->Open dialog in any application, accesses the Windows network shares as if they are just another local disk.

And Ubuntu's version of Explorer kicks Windows XP Explorer butt, big time. For instance, when browsing a directory of photos, you can click on a photo and run through a slide show just as with Windows Explorer. Except that if the photo happens to be a 20 MB monster, it still zooms in and out INSTANTLY; every bit as fast as you can twiddle the mouse wheel. I show this to Windows users and their jaws drop with a quick gasp. They can't believe how instantaneously the picture viewer's zoom responds even with huge images.

But I digress. It's not about features, it's about marketing muscle and lobbying money.

Re: "Dr. Doug's Malware Truck died (business failure)"

I went to his web site and noticed it had changed. And I wondered if the reason that that his writing took off enough to let him dump the un-fun PC maintenance side of things.

But I don't know for sure. And I'm not about to go to North Dakota to find out, either!

Philosopher:
To be fair to Doug, there's not really enough money in computer repair to maintain a shop. The money is in selling high end computer, lcd's, etc. Plus Doug had the overhead of the Van as well, the recession was starting,and Vista must have hurt his business, as Mac was able to take 66% of the high end computers sales away from the Vista OEM's sales. That would be plenty of reason for Doug not to like Mac, and who could blame him.

chips. Sorry, but you were doing so good but you went off track. I am not anybody else. I have not gone by any other persona here, and I am not a well-known commenter on any other site.

But let me be honest here. You are right, I do not get any "service" calls on those P.C.'s I configure with Ubuntu, other than hardware, or help installing additional software (which isn't the easiest thing for the casual user in Linux). But I still stand by the "big target" reasoning behind the malware prevalence in Windows. And if Windows users were given a small security manual giving them specific instructions on how they set up their P.C.'s, and they followed it, there would be only a small fraction of the malware. The problem is not that Windows is actually inferior to Linux in security.

And also, honestly, I do prefer Windows Vista and Windows 7 to Linux. I do believe they are superior O.S.'s to Linux and they are better for multimedia and running the best software. They are easier and more enjoyable to work with. For me, I have become comfortable with the most basic use of Linux, with Ubuntu and do appreciate it's price: free. However, if I could purchase a decent version of XP or Vista for under $50, I would definitely go with that.

chips, you have however made me curious about Linux Mint. If it has all the "bells and whistles" and I can just install it and out of the box all those "bells and whistles" are there, I would be intrigued. Perhaps it may be a better choice for the average home user I serve than Ubuntu. So, I do appreciate the recommendation.

Ridley,
Some good points, to be fair.
But some, lets see:
"or help installing additional software (which isn't the easiest thing for the casual user in Linux)"
Its only hard because you want to install like software like you did in windows. I am not an Ubuntu user, like say Goblin is. But I bet it has Synaptic Package Manager in it to install additional software, and that is very easy. I know that PCLinuxOS and Mepis do have Synaptic.
----------------------------------------------------
Next:
"And if Windows users were given a small security manual giving them specific instructions on how they set up their P.C.'s, and they followed it, there would be only a small fraction of the malware."
Why not instead set it up safe to begin with like your Ubuntu computers did? MS has all this money and employees, I think they can do better. Also, the book is a good idea, but people want to buy a computer off the shelf that is already safe.
--------------------------------------------------
Next:
The big target reasoning:
Not totally without merit, but, there is Mac with 10% now (maybe 10%) and no real major malware problems. Even pro-microsoft users like NKnow would have told you that setting up Windows and running as a limited user, would make your computer safer on the internet. Most Linux distro's do this by default, Mac as well. Why do you think that MS goes to all the trouble to put that option in Windows? Too bad they did not set it up by default, and make it work easy, like linux and mac. MS has known about the malware problems on the internet now since at least windows 95, and has done little to fix it. Blaming the users is now backfiring on them, as users are starting to switch to safer alternatives.
--------------------------------------------------
"And also, honestly, I do prefer Windows Vista and Windows 7 to Linux."

It is of course your choice, I just try to get folks like you to admit that there are major security problems with Windows, which I believe you finally have. Even I could cherrypick an app or two that I would like in Linux that windows has. But I could still run that app in XP in virtualbox inside of my Linux if I needed to.

Its not about having to make a choice between Linux or Windows only, you can use both if one wants to. But the right tool for the job, linux for the internet and email, windows for the legacy apps that you cannot run using wine/crossover, or in a Virtual Machine.

Just a quick comment here. If I were to be setting up Windows P.C.'s instead of Ubuntu, yes, I would have to spend a little extra time to get the security properly set up. M.S. seems to be more concerned that the average user can just go ahead and do anything right from the get-go. But in a couple days, the user's P.C. is useless (due to the malware). UAC is great in theory, but it does suck.

But when my friends and family see my Windows 7 in action, they all say, "I want that". It's beautiful, it's smooth. It does everything. So, it does require a little more maintenance, but if set up properly, it's not that bad and well worth the premium experience.

And again chips, I plan on looking into Mint. Somethime this weekend when I get time. I am interested in how it looks, what it does and what's included. It looks like there is a LiveCD and I will give that a test run.

quote:

"Andre Da Costa :
I think its more about businesses seeing the clear value in Vista. My brother a few months back bought a HP Officejet 7410 AIO printer. Its is so lovely, sends facsimiles, scans, prints, built in card reader, prints wireless too."
.
.
One thing we do know, Andre's knowledge of IT enterprise for Windows is very limited. Often, businesses have their own proprietary systems (software and hardware) that would not necessarily apply to his brother's situation. Sorry Andre, you missed the target again.

Quote Ridley "Just a quick comment here. If I were to be setting up Windows P.C.'s instead of Ubuntu, yes, I would have to spend a little extra time to get the security properly set up."
-
Ridley, if I were you I would make sure I knew what I was talking about before making claims about selling Linux systems. Ridley, who doesnt see anything wrong claiming that Linux needs "a compiler to play a music CD" (BTW thats a FUD of the day comment right there)
-
As chips said, I am an Ubuntu user (mainly for the family) however my main distro of choice is Gentoo (not recommended for the newcommer no matter what anyone says) As highlighted to you before Ridley, you are speaking with people with extensively use both Linux/Windows and this experience shows in the comments they post. Billybob, Chips, Marco,Philosopher (and all the others) we champion Linux BECAUSE we use both systems.
-
I have kept quiet on this for a while, just to see how far you would display youre lack of knowledge on Linux, and I think Ive let it go far enough. Calling Linux a second rate OS would be fine (and your opinion) if you had the extensive experience in both platforms, unfortunately you dont, and for whatever reason have tried to get into a conversation you know very little about.
-
Anyone who prints in their post about compilers and music CD's while claiming to sell Ubuntu, is like someone not knowing that Windows is written by Microsoft. Its one of the basics. The real basics. How on earth you expect people to believe you have even use Linux, let alone sell it beggars belief and the fact you believed I or anyone else here would buy it (no pun intended), is singarly the most insulting thing ive ever seen.
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Quote Ridley "But when my friends and family see my Windows 7 in action, they all say, "I want that". It's beautiful, it's smooth. It does everything."
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This is just jibberish now. Are these the same friends and family you claim to sell the second rate OS Linux to?
-
As far as your silly remarks (which chips commented on) about installing software in Ubuntu. Youre comments are more relevant to Gentoo than ANY other distro although you havent used that either IMO and if youre claiming issues with Ubuntu, then I doubt you could even install Gentoo.
What about Synaptic? Wnat package are you wanting to install on Ubuntu?
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They say save the best until last. So I will.
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Quote Ridley "But let me be honest here."
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We wouldnt expect anything else Ridley. ;)
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Quote Ridley "You are right, I do not get any "service" calls on those P.C.'s I configure with Ubuntu, other than hardware, or help installing additional software (which isn't the easiest thing for the casual user in Linux)"
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So then contrary to what youve implied before, your "Linux customers" are very happy then with no issues? They dont seem to have an issue getting a compiler to run music CDs???????lol. Help installing additional software not the easiest thing? I challenge that and would go as far as to say its easier than windows since all your packages are bundled up in a very nicely organised database for downloading, which you will find if you click on the "Application" menu and then select "add/remove programs" they are all catagorized.
-
I have come across one popular title which I had trouble installing with Ubuntu. ONE.
MAME. I dont know why, but when using 8.04 I had real difficulties getting that to work. The problem was sorted in 8.10 but since I dont know what the issue was, I cannot comment on the fix.
-
Compare that experience with getting the latest games software working on a Windows platform (even XP) look at the workarounds, patches, batchfile/config file editing many users need to do.
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If anyone doubts what Ive said about Linux software installation, I believe I recently linked to an article where it was suggesting that Windows should use the same method as Linux.
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If anyone cant find it, Ill look and link.
-
Now a couple of Q's for Ridley to answer:
-
Quote Ridley "He is far closer to figuring me out than Goblin. chips can tell by my writing, I am definitely not Andre. He is also correct that I do not have a lot of deep experience with Linux. I have enough to take an old P.C. and breathe new life into it with Ubuntu."
-
I never really wanted to figure you out. But whatever. Maybe it will be chips that is able to teach you some of the Linux basics, lest you highlight that lack of knowledge again.
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You do not have a deep experience with Linux? Yet you expect people to believe your proclamation of "second class" OS? Youre latest revelation makes your whole opinion on the system a little weak now doesnt it?
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You sell Linux and claim to have enough experience to declare it "second class", yet Linux Mint is new to you?
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Id ask everyone to follow Ridleys posts back over the last few threads. Hes certainly changed his stance dont you think? The earlier Ridley certainly did not seek (IMO) to state he had basic knowledge only, infact with his "feature riches" and "great memories" he (IMO) tried to suggest the complete opposite. Now we have Ridley who is a bit of a Linux newcomer.
-
Ridley again you have my thanks, youve proved yet another theory of mine (which will be linked here when done) exposing how these Linux (and alternatives myths) are nurtured whilst trying to promote a Microsoft product, a company which is subject to allegations of dubious marketing tactics on the net.
-
BTW Ridley, I hope you are not now trying for an angle of "divide and conquer" us Open Source geeks do chat (and laugh) privately of here you know.

Ridley :wrote

"And again chips, I plan on looking into Mint. Somethime this weekend when I get time. I am interested in how it looks, what it does and what's included. It looks like there is a LiveCD and I will give that a test run."
----------------------------------------------------

Great choice...Mint is a very good OS that works great out of the box. I been using it since the third release.

May I also suggest PCLinuxOS Gnome 2008? It has among the best looking desktops of any OS out there.

http://www.linuxgator.org/images/imageb.jpg

I hope people read my posts and see that I havent claimed Ridley is Andre. That being said, whilst Ridley is making his first steps into a brave new Linux world, it comes as a coincidence that over on Twitter Andre's claiming to be installing VMWARE 6.5.1.
-
FYI Screen dump taken.
-
Andre/Ridley the same person? I dont think it really matters, they both need to learn more about an alternative to Windows if they are going to claim Windows is better.
-
and another allegation, this time at the companies behind these "figures" that Andre et al like to quote:
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http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/03/net-applications-big-lie/
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By the way, if anyone checks the BN site its now back up and running. If you check Roys comments, you will see that the host couldnt handle the daily hits 180k+ (with a spike of around 700k+ in one day alone) Hes printed that email for you to read.
-
Thats alot of people out there who find the site interesting.

@Goblin:
Nice link about Net Apps, I always highly suspected their dishonestly. Linux most likely has a 3 to 5% world share.

@Ralph:
I see you have good taste in software.

@Ridley:
An operating system is just a tool. But malware can be painful and expensive.

Ridley says: "But when my friends and family see my Windows 7 in action, they all say, "I want that". It's beautiful, it's smooth. It does everything. So, it does require a little more maintenance, but if set up properly, it's not that bad and well worth the premium experience."
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And here we greatly disagree. If you think about this for a minute, its not that easy to setup Windows, and secure it. At least 80% of home users cannot do it. And then there is all the other software you have to install on a fresh install of windows. DVD playing does not come out of the box with XP, you have to install software. It used to take me, 1 to 3 days to secure and install software to make XP usuable, but then I was somewhat of a power user. And then with Windows, its never really secure or stable enough to really trust. I can install Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Mint, or Sidux, in about 7 minutes on the same computer, with a full range of apps.

I am a director of changebase, a company that provides automated application compatibility testing and remediation software to corporates looking to migrate their portfolios of applications. What we are seeing is interesting and supports both the ideas of early w7 adoption AND the halo effect of w7 on Vista. we are now seeing more people than ever before seriously looking at their Vista migrations and at the same time many clients signing up for our early adoption program for w7!

I agree with one of your respondants comments about people not perhaps realising how deep the recession is but speaking as an earstwhile IT drector of one of the big american investment banks and having gone through 2 bad downturns before, the core infrastructure projects were always the last things to get chopped, way after all the new development projects have been canned.

My view... many people have been excited by the PDC event showcasing 7 and we will see far more early adopters of 7 than were previously predicted. Interestingly we will also see a number of cautious people moving to Vista - more than I would have thought 3 months ago

regards

Hello Mr Ford.
I cannot fault your openness about who you are and your company. I am pleased someone with this level of experience in the market place can come here and comment, especially for me to respond to since im a mere minion in the IT industry, and certainly not a "big player" in any sense of the word.
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Quote Grant Ford "and at the same time many clients signing up for our early adoption program for w7!"
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How many is "many"? I could say "Many Governments are researching a switch to open source apps" or "In 2008 many people moved to Linux" I think "many" needs to be better explained before any opinion or debate can be drawn from it.
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Quote Ford "the core infrastructure projects were always the last things to get chopped"
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Completely agree, and I think that would suggest more that Open Source would NOT be considered immediately by major firms. However if a firm is struggling to stay afloat (in these times), and has no issues with its current infrastructure, then I very much doubt the added expense of a W7 adoption that offers no groundbreakingly new features for them would be much of a serious consideration in these times. At the moment in the IT world, I believe Apple is one of the few making gains, I cant though see them signing up for the W7 early adoption scheme though! (although please tell us otherwise, it would make a great article!)
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I hope the users here that like to say Linux users bash a pro-MS opinion take note that it does not appear that I am bashing Mr Ford, and if what was said is correct Mr Ford should be a prime target for me since his firm is a Microsoft Gold Partner.

Goblin you are ignorant and you did not read what I wrote stating that I was quoting Andre. I do know Linux has a compiler. Get over it.

I also stated that I have only configured about a dozen Linux boxes and they do work fine. The only reason I use Linux is because it is free.

Linux is a second-class second-rate O.S. and it always will be. It has advanced in the past 10 years, but so has Windows.

Yes, I can install Ubuntu on an old system and because of the way the install discs are created, it does contain many open source programs.

However, with Windows I get a premium experience. I can look for software online, download it and install it quick and easy. With Linux, I am stuck with what is available on the package manager.

Even the available freeware online for Windows is slicker, more professional, more useful and easier to use than the stuff you can get for Linux.

No Goblin, I am not an expert on Linux. I don't want to be and I don't need to be. The basic setup with Ubuntu is enough to get the few people I have configured P.C.'s for to do the basics. But Linux is not worth the time and effort to become an expert on because ITS USER BASE IS LESS THAN 1%, while close to 90% of the world is on Windows. Linux market share continues to hover in the 0.6 to 0.83 percent range. It truly is irrelevant. A great tool and a decent free O.S. for old P.C.'s to do the basics, but not a world class O.S. like Windows.

Perhaps Goblin uses Windows occasionally, but he has some sort of underdog complex with Linux. He has mastered the O.S. and could probably dazzle you with his P.C.'s setup. But you know countless hours of work were required to make it mimic the beauty, smooth operation and compatability of Windows Vista/7. And it is still just a mimic. A cheap knockoff. You see, Goblin has an underdog complex. And he uses M.S. topic sites to promote an irrelevant O.S.

Hey, I have an idea! Let's talk about the article Joe wrote! Let's see... Vista Enterprise gains, and how the ending of support for XP may affect that. But somehow, Goblin thinks it is relevant to bring up Linux. Because he is such a saint. "Linux is better. Linux will solve all your Windows problems. Linux will be the making the enterprise gains, not Vista." Yeah, right. I suppose Linux will slice your bread for you too.

Here is another great idea! Ignore Goblin's long irrelevant posts and we can just discuss what Joe's article is about! I like that idea!

Quote Ridley "Goblin you are ignorant and you did not read what I wrote stating that I was quoting Andre"
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Just stop this sillyness. You put a quote in your text with no comment no "quote andre" no mention that it was rubbish, you simply put a piece of text into your post and only agree its wrong when challenged.
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That wouldnt be so bad if you hadnt gawped with childlike bewilderment at the mention of Mint, and the fact that your stance was package management was difficult in Linux.
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My questions which you have refused to answer have been superceeded by these two:
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1. If, (as by your own admition) your Linux knowledge is basic, do you now retract the statement that its second class to Windows, simply because you are not qualified to make a comment? Just like I cant say 7 is better or worse than Linux because Ive no experience with it.
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2. and continuing on from that, what would you do if one of your "Linux customers" had an issue with bash or another cli related issue. Tell them "sorry mate, I dont know that much. its your problem"???
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Quote "Here is another great idea! Ignore Goblin's long irrelevant posts and we can just discuss what Joe's article is about! I like that idea!"
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I bet you would. IMO You dont sell Linux systems, and its why nobody has jumped to your defense. IMO Nobody believes your sillyness and simply has to check back and see that for reasons known only to yourself, you make proclamations of systems youve had very little (if any) experience of.
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Your basic (and wrong) Linux knowledge is exposed, that my friend is your crime. Its also your punishment.
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Quote "Perhaps Goblin uses Windows occasionally, but he has some sort of underdog complex with Linux."
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No my Linux newcommer, I use it everyday. Infact it was only last year I entered an effort into a 5k demo comp which was written in asm. I think I have a little more than a "passing knowledge" and I believe in coding on the system I have far more than you.
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Quote Ridley ""Linux is better. Linux will solve all your Windows problems. Linux will be the making the enterprise gains, not Vista." "
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If you are suggesting I said those things, again you are telling lies. I have linked here to articles by others, but since I have no personal experience on Enterprise and Linux issues, I wouldnt seek to state otherwise.
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Ridley, before you post your next little "revelation" think about how you are coming across to others. If you cant understand (and would like) I have over 40 emails from people commenting on your revelations. I can do an article (or forward the text) to you, if you wish.
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For heavens sake, have a little dignity and maturity. Your Linux stance is now all a little weak, and the fact that you still try to cover it up (when all the user has to do is read the post in question) just further weakens any argument.
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By all means though, do another comeback. But think very carefully. Quote Ridley "we can just discuss what Joe's article is about!"
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Joe Wilcox said himself I am welcome to post here, I wonder what he thinks of your revelations? and if your idea of discussion is some wishy washy story about selling Linux systems with little knowledge whilst proclaiming Windows better, is your idea of discussion, I would welcome Joes views on the matter.

Yes, Windows Vista will make some enterprise gains. But I don't believe it will cause much of a change in the overall user base of Vista. Enterprises will have to consider support life however and it will cause gains in enterprise.

Most enterprises will however look to Windows 7 for their next O.S. whenever possible. The technological advances M.S. made with its flagship O.S. will be an advantage for those that can holdoff for it.

Grant Ford :wrote

"we are now seeing more people than ever before seriously looking at their Vista migrations and at the same time many clients signing up for our early adoption program for w7!"
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In fact Ballmer is making suggestions that upgrading from XP to 7 is a "good idea". Mr. Ballmer said nothing about upgrading to Vista first. But Ballmer is using the XP is "dated" and "there might be complaints" kind of plea. This must be a new strategy.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/158986/xp_backlash.html?tk=rss_news

"If you deploy a four or five-year old operating system today, most people will ask their boss why the heck they don't have the stuff they have at home," the Microsoft CEO said.

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In my opinion, that quote is not enough of a good reason to upgrade...its just a excuse to sell new software.....If it ain't broke, don't fix it, if it is still working..don't replace it...