Wow - that is amazing. It's probably expected since the US DOJ came to the same conclusion.

"Better: Temporarily pull all software from the European Union?"

Every time the EU fines Microsoft someone says that but the EU market is BIGGER than the US. They could do it but their stock would fall below $10 and Ballmer would be sued.

Even if it was temporary, who would buy from a supplier that keeps throwing their toys out of the pram and makes your business illegal? It's just asking for trouble. The EU would not take it lying down either, I would expect a lot of political retaliation. Microsoft are arrogant, but they are not more powerful than the EU.

I think that is important post it again.

PC PRO Last Edition:
STAR LETTER The groat Ubuntu experiment
l've been a Windows admin for more than 14 years now, but recently l've round myself paying more attention to the Linux market, and with the release of Ubuntu 8.041 decided it was time to finally give it a try.
I started a couple of months ago by migrating my home computer, and round that the whole experience was incredibly painless and far easier than I was expecting. Being able to browse the Internet without worrying a bout vi ruses is q trite a surreal experience, although like any good Windows admin I'm still a little paranoid, which means l'm running NoScript and I set up regulär backups just in case. To be fair, Ubuntu does have its rough edges: I had to disable the 3D desktop effects on one machine to résolve a problem with Ubuntu crashing, and my home printer is playing up a little, but other than that it's been remarkably trouble-free.
In fact, everything about Ubuntu feels faster than XP. Browsing files on my domain is snappier than it is with Explorer. Reading PDF and Office files feels quicker, too, with large PDFs being really responsive. One of the biggest differences, though, is writing CDs. Anybody who's done this in Windows will know what l'm talking about. Start burning a CD and you can forget about doing any useful work for the next live minutes; if you have a DVD to do you may as well write-off the morning. It's so bad that we actually bought an extra Computer at work, just for producing our DVD archives.
On the down side, though, while Ubuntu does nave good support for Windows networks, I can't manage completely without XP. After all, l'm managing a Windows network here, and there's an awful lot of software that's Windows only. Ubuntu does have a lot built in: I can browse files on the domain fine, and its Remote Desktop Protocol support is great for managing my servers, but things such as Group Policy and Active Directory really need a Windows XP workstation. Despite that, they'll have to pry Ubuntu from my dead hands.
-----------------

This is just to example, there are more about, Ubuntu is arriving its maturity

Unbundling Internet Exploder (and maybe part of ActiveX) is huge victory for Windows users. The fact that users might have to download and install a browser, could mean they might get a browser that is a lot safer, with better features. Plus it will make it lots harder for MS to ram their internet "standards" on everyone once IE starts to really lost market share. I say this not as an Open Source advocate, but as a consumer advocate.

Thank you EU!

A little victory (of sorts) which will enable fairer competition and better exposure to alternatives.
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See Open Source is good for the end user regardless of if you use it or not!
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I think this is the beginning of something alot larger, and the next item on the agenda to be tackled (I hope) will be the limited choice in "over the counter" PCs OS.
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I would like to see clear and simple methods for people to get their money back from MS if they choose a new PC and dont want a Windows platform on it. I would like to see choices in platform given to the customer, I think this will be a possibility.
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For the people who like to insult and twist my words: I am not saying to remove Windows from every PC sold. What Im saying is give the customer a choice, and a SIMPLE method of getting their money back if they dont want Windows. Its not much to ask, is it?

Correction:
"See Open Source is good for the end user "
should read:
"See, Open Source/Alternatives are good for the end user...."

Quoting Goblin:
"I would like to see clear and simple methods for people to get their money back from MS if they choose a new PC and dont want a Windows platform on it. I would like to see choices in platform given to the customer, I think this will be a possibility."
----------------------------------------------------
There is no excuse for going down to one of the local stores and buying a laptop and knowing that part of the cost is Vista that you will never use, or get a refund on. If OEM's were not afraid of MS and its unethical tactics, it would be a simple matter of changing the hard drive out when you buy that laptop, with an OS of your choice, or No OS, with of course, the cost savings.

Why this is not done, is because look at who owns the gov in the USA. The other thing that MS have prevented is OEM's installing more than one OS on the same hard drive, notice you never see that.

As far as not having to pay the MS tax in the future, a possibility, as Goblin has so elegantly stated, if it does happen, it will happen in the EU first. The freedom is not here in Corporate USA.

So how are the users going to download Opera or Firefox if Windows is shipped without a browser?

Here you all go again. Ok, I want the browsers removed from ALL iPhones and Android phones. Remove Garage Band right now from the Mac computer. Better remove Youtube applet while you are at it so that everyone has a choice. That Mac computer of yours better only have the OS and nothing else on it or it is bundling. Please remove Java support on all systems. This is the only way you Linux dorks even have a chance with getting any wide spread use. There is a reason why companies do business and spend money to develop a competitive edge. And it is also the way our ecomony functions. I am just sick and tired of hearing from the Linux community agreeing with anything that trys to break down companies that actually employ US citizens, spend money in our economy, and drive a entire ecosystem. Why do you think the iphone is so popular now? It is because they put all their development time into their device, their design, and the software they choose to go on there. Giving you NO choice. But hey thats ok, down with Microsoft because they are arrogant. That is such a lame old line. Microsoft hasn't been arrogant in years. It is the Linux nuts that are now the arrogant "I can do anything and shouldn't have to pay for anything". You are all part of the reason our economy is in the tank. While companies like Microsoft and Apple try to keep it running.

Dear God, what a tedious bunch of crap all this has become.

The real flaw in all this square-dance-at-the-mental-hospital is the thought that one actually NEEDS a browser to download anything from the internet.

That's the problem with the "technical" community at large; nobody can think of any other way of doing anything... until somebody comes up with something new... then all the nitwits want to steal it and claim they could have thought of it first if only they had a chance.

Bumpkins.

@Portuno
LOL. Good to see you back.
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Quote "That's the problem with the "technical" community at large; nobody can think of any other way of doing anything."
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Never a truer word said.
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Regards.
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Good night all. Im off to bed.

Get the EU Competition Commission to become responsible for authorising permitted browsers in various operating systems. They can create, test and deploy a limited browser that permits selecting from a live catalog of permissible browsers.

They can certify each new release, and if anyone has ANY problems with the browser, they can sue the EUCC.

I'm actually surprised the EUCC is paying attention to Opera, which is a Norwegian company. Norway isn't in the EU.

I think the tying case is a complete waste of time.

The interoperability case, however, is probably worthwhile. Microsoft has been using its network protocols and data formats as a weapon, offering them up as “standards” when it suits them (OOXML), and trying to claim infringement of valuable “intellectual property” when it doesn’t (SMB/CIFS). I think it’s good that they be required to open up their specs, to allow competing products to interoperate. A market dominated by one player is not an innovative market.

Joe, I remember commenting on one of your articles a long time ago, when Opera first made this complaint to the EU. In less than a weeks time after Opera had filed a complaint, Microsoft releases an IE alpha, that was going be standards compliant, as that was part of the Opera complaint back then. At that time I stated that Microsoft was only doing to as damage control, as they feared what the EU will do.

It is not over yet, and remains to be seen if the EU will only give M$ just a slap on the hand. It could just take the form of releasing just another N version of Seven, while still selling the full version of Seven, with IE. This I doubt that the IE will fall for again like they did with WMP and that N version.

According to some reports, the EU could also fine MS for this bundling practice all the way back to 1996. This could be a big fine, but too early to tell yet. Perhaps, as a further suggestion, that the EU should make M$ go back and make patches to remove IE in all those windows version back to 1996 for users, free or charge.

The famous US antitrust trial of Microsoft, should be a reminder, of top MS officials, lying under oath, that IE could not be removed from the Windows core. This lie did not help them with the EU, and in Microsoft's case, the old saying of "what you do will come back to you," is justly deserved.

But this is most likely the minor of the two cases, the big one is still to come. The case of MS using non-standards in MS Office and corrupting the ISO standards body. I think the EU will take a very dim outlook on this one. Expect a huge fine on this one soon.

Note to self:

1) Create simple calculator* program for Windows
2) Sue Microsoft for bundling a calculator program with their OS
3) Make millions in "damages", retire.

*can replace and/or repeat with calendar, screensaver, notepad, clock, etc.

This is the way antitrust works. Weak but politically connected companies kill their competitors through antitrust because they WON'T compete, not because they CAN'T.

Look at the Standard Oil case, ALCOA, AMD vs. Intel, Everyone vs. MS. Until antitrust law is eliminated we will never have free enterprise. Antitrust destroys competition.

Even if a company somehow fends off antitrust charges, the company's competitiveness is reduced simply due to the enormous costs incurred.

What's that saying - can't teach an old dog new tricks? If ms responds once again by saying "in our view there's nothing wrong with our business practices", they will look again like old. New would be admitting which could draw more crowds to their internet properties. People would think - maybe there's hope to running mafia on my pc.

I use ms products and I am a "fan". Some stuff is pretty good. If they stop beeping around, they could be great. If they don't, then I will continue building up skills on the other systems where terminals are all the rage.

For gods sake. Would Mrs. Kroes please just stuff it.

What happened to WMP? It's linked as a separate download in Windows.
Now what will happen to the broswer? It will be linked as a download. Not a separate one mind you. What's stopping MS from making it a bundle again? So you download the 'Live Bundle' and get IE, WMP, MSN, you name it.
And the best part... no one is gonna bother with downloading an alternative browser via FTP or telnet by command line.
So basically by making Microsoft remove the browser they are giving them the competitive option to ship back in all their software which they had to remove.
This time around a user clicked the link and downloaded it all, thus approving.

If I were Microsoft I'd ask Mrs. Kroes what is part of an operating system and what is not. As Meem pointed out, what's stopping them from stripping it down to the bone?

You do not need a browser to download a browser, it would be trivial to write a script which uses ftp to download and install whichever browser you like. There are many many possible alternatives and I haven't bothered to think for very long. A browser is a HTML renderer, not a network stack.

The EU hasn't actually said that they must stop bundling it, just that they have broken the law in bundling it up until now. The USA came to the same conclusion so what is the problem? You are all upset because we have our own laws and do not just adopt yours?

The main effect we are looking for is increased competition. Look what it has done to the browser market over the last 12 months. We now have some really advanced quick browsers and one incumbent monopolist, the more competition the better.

@Please stop all your non-sense talk - If "this is the way our economy works", then why does the USA have anti-trust laws? Surely that is harming competition too?

Excessive power to influence the market breaks down normal market forces which IS "how our economy works". You should go and do a basic economics 101 before dictating how everything works.

P.S. Your economy is in the tank because of your free market working TOO freely. It is directly due to LACK of Government regulation not excess regulation.

P.P.S. It might shock you that sovereign nations can do what they like, but that's the way our world works.

So is Apple going to have to stop bundling their computers with MacOS? And stop bundling Safari in MacOs?

And will Google stop pushing Chrome in it's sites? Isn't that a form of bundling after all? (I mean, just think what would happen if Hotmail told you to get and use IE8 instead every time you went there using Chrome or Firefox?)

And how does one download the browser of ones choice without using a pre-installed browser? Well there are the ftp and the telnet command line programs... But, in the end, isn't MS bundling those with Windows? And can Joe-average-user who is still confused by IE7 tabs really use either? Or a script? Or maybe MS should include links to download *all* the browsers out there?

And finally, let's not forget that IE6 killed Netscape Communicator 4 not just because of MS dirty ticks, but because Netscape Communicator was so bad it made IE6 look great. These days its (arguably) the other way around, and alternative browsers *are* gaining market share. As they should, since they're better products.

Apple is not subject to the same laws because they do not have enough marketshare to distort the market.

The monopoly laws are clearly written down and apply to everyone equally. If you don't have a monopoly then you can't be prosecuted under anti-trust laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_82

@portuno, @billybob, ...: Are you all deluded? My grandmother won't write any kind of script to download any kind of web browser, even if this kind of thing is trivial for you hotshot-hackerwannabees.

What you're essentially saying is that a car should come off the assembly lines without windows in order to foster competition in that specific market segment. Forget about usability & the car actually being useable when a Regular Joe buys it. This is insane.

Or would you prefer Microsoft to release a download manager that installs IE on the OS separately. Microsoft can still bundle the layout engine with the OS because they use it in different parts of the system anyway and they could just download iexplore.exe can just contains the main IE UI.

It is more like Microsoft being a glass manufacturer and agreed a shady deal back in the 80's that they would be the only supplier of glass to every auto manufacturer in the world. For doing this, the manufacturers get a very good price, but only if they only ever use Microsoft for all their glass and mirror needs.

Then Microsoft start changing the curvature of the glass so only Microsoft windscreen wipers would work. Then they start making special headlight covers which only work with special polarised bulbs supplied by Microsoft.

There have been revolutions in the auto glass industry in the last 20 years, but if it were the IT industry we would still be stuck with glass that shatters and embeds into people because there is no opportunity for new manufacturers to enter the market.

In economist terms, Microsoft adds artificial barriers to entry in the software and hardware industries. Barriers to entry are bad enough, but when an incumbent monopolist is enforcing them it is a legal matter.

"Or would you prefer Microsoft to release a download manager that installs IE on the OS separately. Microsoft can still bundle the layout engine with the OS because they use it in different parts of the system anyway and they could just download iexplore.exe can just contains the main IE UI."

That sounds like a great solution, lets go with that. First, there is the not so small matter of the fine. We need some more corn for our donkeys over here.

Again there is some good comments made. Some folks here are naive enough to speak for everyone. Really, do we expect the average person to command line a script, let alone create a script and then run it?

REDICOULOUS... THIS GOES PASSED ABSURD...

JIJI and others like this person, thanks for bringing in the reality of the major demographics of the actual typical users of personal computing to us -- You're right, Grandma isn't going to write anything close to a "script" on her PC.

Can you imagine the level of frustration escalating????

For those in the profession of Support Services of PCs should already know and be aware of this, and trust me, I bet you folks, such as myself has plenty of stories to tell.

Well back to writing some more SQL Stored Proceedure Commands... My granny doesn't know these scripts either...

Just needed a small break...

@Please stop all your non-sense talk, given the fact that IE on Windows mobile is rated the worst browser yet. Your comment on removing all browser, if extended to all devices, would be the best thing to happen to Microsoft.

The problem with bundled IE isn't the bundling in itself. But rather that IE was not W3C compliant for a long long time. Being bundled in the majority of the client computers being sold it turned the internet into a IE compliant landscape.

Not that your site couldn't be W3C compliant, but you had to test against say Firefox and IE. This has an added cost which either the developer of the website absorbs o transfer to the client as a cost.

On top of this when IE began to change a lot of those sites began to break. First we saw the added security after the Active X and other fiascos. Then we saw IE become more W3C compliant. So now the sites developed by the Microsoft faithful, who believed Microsoft and Windows would dominate the landscape forever, were being broken by the same application they vowed to support.

So if your site begins to break down and the IT crew comes up and says we have to spend more money on it. I'd ask why didn't you make it W3C compliant to start with!!!

All this just leads to useless waste of money and resources. Which takes us to the point of cost. I don't understand what you mean by the Linux crowd not wanting to pay for anything? Let me check by accounting records. Mhhh here we go, yup Red Hat Enterprise Server. Yup I'm getting billed for it. Oh what's this, Java web development toolkit. Getting billed for it. Even if it runs on Linux and the Java JDK is free. Lets see what else we've got here. Oh Oracle, that ought to be expensive. Nope it's the free edition. Oh found one! Microsoft SQL Server. This one ought to cost me, I'm sure. They're the company you list as trying to save the world economy by making a business out of selling software. Let's see the records. Mhhhh, nope nope. Nothing. Not getting billed. Oh it's the express edition. Darn, I thought I had a winner there.

We should add Microsoft to the list of companies that have us in the present economic situation. They are after all giving stuff for free and it ain't candy. We might want to add Andre for getting a free laptop. And Joe for wanting one. And Dell and HP and all the OEMs for giving Windows out for free. Because you know, there isn't a Microsoft tax. Right?

Having watched the MS people come out of the woodwork here, posting that its the end of the world, because most likely, IE will not be bundled with Seven in Europe, and they don't know what to do. Well windows fanboys, why not think back to before Internet Exployer was bundled with Windows, back to the days of Win3.11, and what did you do then?

Back then you went out and bought Netscape on a cd or floppies. So I guess, you can just download a browser now, they mostly if not all free now, and burn it to a cd/dvd, or put in on a usb stick. See, problem solved. Don't have a second computer, or forgot to do that before you got rid of your old one? The get it from a friend. Whoops, I forgot, your a windows fanboy, or worse, and you don't have any friends. So go to the library, fanboys, and download it there. See, you don't need Microsoft central to do all your thinking for you.

I wonder if this discussion should not be more along the lines of what would be good for Microsoft to do next. Love or Hate Microsoft, they still going be around and a force in the Market.

They going have to comply with the EU on the browser, whatever that turns out to be. But I couldn't help but notice the timing here of the EU decision, right when Bush, the friend and protector of MS is leaving. If Bush had more time he might have invaded the EU over this one, LOL, just joking.

So will MS use their connections with Obama to put pressure on the EU? If they do, I think that will be a big mistake that will cause them more pain down the road.

My suggestion for MS is to comply, comply, more than comply. I also suggest that the case about the Office standards is the big one, and only here does MS have a small window (pardon the pun) of time, to do something about it. That something that MS need to do is to release a service pack for all Office versions, that makes ODF work, and makes it the default standard. I don't think Microsoft with Ballmer at the helm, will do this, as he is too steeped in the same thought of his boss Bill Gates. And that is the type of thinking that got them into this mess, and is now backfiring.

Microsoft has got to become that really truly open company, and stop pushing its "lock in" at every opportunity. Until that happens, and the thinking at the top of MS changes, they going be the whipping boy of the EU. Its only a question of time before other governments around the world go after them as well, as they such as easy target, with all their money, and all that they have done, both unethical and wrong.

"Really, do we expect the average person to command line a script, let alone create a script and then run it?"

Stop using straw men, I never said granny had to write a script. It is something that could easily be written by a normal coder, then run as soon as granny clicks on 'Internet'.

Using the word script means it is a very easy task and could be done by someone who only knows scripting. You can use a compiled binary if you like. Granny does not have to learn C++ to run a compiled app does she?

As an example, on Ubuntu you would click the menu then Install Software, then search for browser, then click the browser you want to install and it does the rest. No need for an existing browser or a command line.

What about the actual findings of the court? Do you think they were right? How much do you think the fine will be. I know for sure that it will not include vouchers. I wonder if the payment will come as quickly this time or if MS need to be fined again for not paying fines?

It's a good day for technology, a bad day for MS Partners.

Also in addition to making ODF default in MS Office, MS should announce that it is discontinuing all support for future Office version of its so called "standard" and will only support ODF. They should also release converters, on every platform, Windows, all versions, Mac, Linux, BSD, OS/2, Beos, and anything else that their "standard" negatively infringed or hurt. These converter programs should be released as GPL open source, and the old MS so called standard format for Office, released as GPL code so anybody could use it.

That maybe asking a lot, but it might be enough for the EU.

Which brings us to another question, even more interesting. Since basically, the EU with this browser case, is revisiting the famous anti-trust case of Netscape vs MS. This case was for the most part, pre-empted by the Bush administration, when it came in. The point being, that now the EU can go back (whenever there is a complaint) made by a company, or organization, and look at many of what was in the DOJ antitrust case.

I would like to see some companies file on the practices of sales of windows to OEM's. The fact that you never see a dual boot system of windows and Linux on the same computer to be sold, another one for the EU. I like like their to be choice for consumers when they buy a computer say at Best Buy. Even IBM now has a chance to think about filing a complaint about its mistreatment at the hands of Microsoft, relating to OS/2.

What the EU is doing here, is a positive thing, and I hope they continue, and expand it.

M$ used bundling to suppress competition.

It is right and proper for the EU to use competition laws to force them to unbundle.

For Opera this is more than 10 years too late. Many still think the blue "e" is the Internet.

Yes, wouldn't it be great to see consumer organizations file complaints with the EU about the Windows Tax on computers, and get the right to be refunded for Windows sold on computers that they are not going to use.

Better yet, to be instantly refunded, at the store during purchase of the computer.

@sam,
Since we are talking about future EU complaints/court cases, and this is about the "bundling" of Internet Exploder with Windows, why should not someone complain, and the EU take a look at the:

Bundling of Windows on new computers.

Maybe if the market had to sell a bare computer, and Microsoft had to sell an Install cd/dvd, then competition would be somewhat restored.

@chips

I wish that a person such as myself could buy a PC without an operating system pre-loaded, it would help me save time from wiping it out. Just have a disk that has drivers for MS, and Linux included. That would be great. I wouldn't have to wipe out the partions that have your OS and that stinking restoration partition and go from there. Do you know how much time people like us would save -- Yeah I know, it's only a few minutes, but if you are getting new hardware every year and setting up other pc's it would help.

Personally, I like to have a PC with absolutely nothing on the harddrive, RAW would be great.

One other thing, if you, editorally speaking buy a "new" computer today, the drivers already pre-installed are all ready obsolete by the time you set it up anyhow.

It would be fantastic if we had an option of having nothing on the drive at all.

they should forbid selling windows in the EU that is bundled with ie!

@Billy.

So bobby. how does this "script" get onto the computer that granny bought? You expect Microsoft to add it?

A smarter move would be for Microsoft to partner with Firefox and Opera and Apple and include all of the browsers in the installation media. The user could then select which browser they want. Microsoft could then pay a royalty to the maker of which ever browser was selected. Or heck they could even drop in a stripped down open source browser coded to the download sites of various browser providers.

But that's not what you really want. You want M$ dead. That's the only conclusion I can draw from such a ludicrous suggestion as a "script."

Get f*&(ing real man.

And oh yeah.

OPERA SUCKS. No one uses it because IT SUCKS. There is no compelling reason to use it... BECAUSE IT SUCKS. Firefox is gaining ground because they make a SUPERIOR BROWSER. All the lawsuits in Europe won't make opera suck any less.

1-So how are the users going to download Opera or Firefox if Windows is shipped without a browser?

2-So bobby. how does this "script" get onto the computer that granny bought? You expect Microsoft to add it?
---------------

Apparently a good question, but really it doesn't matter, you KNOW about Market forces or Ecosystem dynamics? (Given the great diversity among organisms on earth, most ecosystems only changed very gradually, as some species would disappear while others would move in. Locally, sub-populations continuously go extinct, to be replaced later through dispersal of other sub-populations. Stochastists do recognize that certain intrinsic regulating mechanisms occur in nature.)

It mean, there are a lot of companies anxious for give to us that MS can not (how? example; CD -with ALL browsers.- adjunct or/something like that. Who;Dell HP Google,etc etc.)
----

therefore don't worry about.
The adaptive capacity of human beings is legendary

Without getting into all the reasons I think this ruling is a bad idea, I will say that nothing so dire as a script or a bundle-all-browsers scenario needs to be implemented to make it work. Simply put, the OEMs would be paid by the interested parties to put the browser of choice on the image of Windows sold with that OEMs PCs. It's really not that different that pre-configured search options, desktop spam, antivirus programs and all the other "crapware" that comes with virtually any commercially built PC you buy.

You know, it's that stuff that pretty much everyone on this thread nukes as soon as we get a system, on those rare occasions we don't part it together ourselves :)

This solution makes it simple for Granny, as only a just-in-time installation procedure need be run upon her first click, and she's up and going with FF, IE, or whatever that OEM got greased to pre-configure. No sweat.

'Without getting into all the reasons I think this ruling is a bad idea'
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maybe yes maybe not, but it's about liberty to choose (MS anathema)

"Just have a disk that has drivers for MS, and Linux included. That would be great"
This is a good web:
http://www.driverpacks.net/
Currently there are 10 DriverPacks available, all for the wnt5_x86-32 OS platform:

* DriverPack Chipset
* DriverPack CPU
* DriverPack Graphics A
* DriverPack Graphics B
* DriverPack Graphics C
* DriverPack LAN
* DriverPack MassStorage
* DriverPack Sound A
* DriverPack Sound B
* DriverPack WLAN

“maybe yes maybe not, but it's about liberty to choose (MS anathema)”
Oh, the “liberty to choose” is alive and well, and has been for a long, long time. Well, that is if you’re talking about the consumer. On the other hand, if you’re talking about the OEM’s having the liberty to strike up competitive deals with various browser makers, then I would agree; those folks have not been given every opportunity possible to squeeze more money out of software makers, and this ruling will definitely help with that. So if your name ends with Dell or Packard, you’re a happy camper.
But if we’re talking about consumers, that is to say the people who actually use computers, the vast majority of them don’t give a hoot about which browser they use. Frankly, if asked, most folks - and by this I mean civilians like my mom, not us tech-soldiers - just stare blankly as you attempt to enumerate the various pros and cons. To them, the Internet is the product they care about, not the browser, and how they reach the Internet matters very little, and so do the choices.
But as for you and me, why sure, we have been perfectly capable of dumping our current browser in favor of whatever sexy young thang happens along. I myself have done this quite a few times over the years as one technology gets some edge over the other (IE’s inexplicable lack of tabbed browsing comes immediately to mind). For a self-confessed geek like me, that’s fun! For a “just gimme my email and my Internets and leave me the hell alone” main-stream consumer, that’s a nightmare.

“maybe yes maybe not, but it's about liberty to choose (MS anathema)”
Oh, the “liberty to choose” is alive and well, and has been for a long, long time. Well, that is if you’re talking about the consumer. On the other hand, if you’re talking about the OEM’s having the liberty to strike up competitive deals with various browser makers, then I would agree; those folks have not been given every opportunity possible to squeeze more money out of software makers, and this ruling will definitely help with that. So if your name ends with Dell or Packard, you’re a happy camper.
But if we’re talking about consumers, that is to say the people who actually use computers, the vast majority of them don’t give a hoot about which browser they use. Frankly, if asked, most folks - and by this I mean civilians like my mom, not us tech-soldiers - just stare blankly as you attempt to enumerate the various pros and cons. To them, the Internet is the product they care about, not the browser, and how they reach the Internet matters very little, and so do the choices.
But as for you and me, why sure, we have been perfectly capable of dumping our current browser in favor of whatever sexy young thang happens along. I myself have done this quite a few times over the years as one technology gets some edge over the other (IE’s inexplicable lack of tabbed browsing comes immediately to mind). For a self-confessed geek like me, that’s fun! For a “just gimme my email and my Internets and leave me the hell alone” main-stream consumer, that’s a nightmare.

Apologies for double post. I blame IE 8 :)

This one will never work. Internet is a completely integral part of an operating system now, just like the Start menu, Notepad, etc. It is INTEGRAL.
If you're mother, or someone not so good with computers buys Windows they shouldn't be forced to have a completely useless computer until they somehow find a way to download a browser. How do they do that? Firefox, Opera, it means nothing to them. How do they find a browser? To the novice user the term "brower" doesn't even exist, it's just The Internet. The European Union must be full of the stupidest people on this planet. It won't help anything other than confusing the SHIT out of every novice user (which greatly outnumbers the intermediate/advanced).

Might as well take out the Start menu and give users a choice, just incase Google decides they want to make their own. LOL.

The EU has to stop playing the role of a Software Architect.Yesterday was Media Player, now it's Internet Explorer, tomorrow will be something else. What is part of the operating system and what's not, is not an issue to be decided by the EU Commission. Politics should be left out of software.

Re: "Politics should be left out of software."

Yeah. Do you mean as in:

Ballmer buys four tickets for $25k
memex.naughtons.org/archives/2008/12/30/6034

and:

Gates, Ballmer Head List of Obama Donors
www.xconomy.com/seattle/2008/12/30/gates-ballmer-head-list-of-obama-donors/

and:

Today, Microsoft announced—and quite proudly, I must say—that Tuesday's historic presidential inauguration would be streamed using Silverlight.
www.microsoft-watch.com/content/web_services_browser/silverlight_makes_history.html

Yeah, go tell Gates and Ballmer to leave politics out of software.

Or else tell them that when you play with fire, you get burned.

It'll be a bit tricky. Back in the DoJ case I was laughing as Bill Gates said that the web browser was an inextricable part of the operating system. At the time MS could probably have simply pulled the things out.

These days MS makes so much use of IE for update purposes; even if you use the MS Updater. Most MSWinduhs software makers also rely on IE being there. Imagine having to work out what browsers are available and then launching them and getting them to behave the way you want. Although this sort of thing can be fixed (the browser can be eliminated altogether for update frameworks), it will cost a lot of time and money all around and MS will not be the only ones to suffer.

I'm not disagreeing with the EU Commission's findings; it's just that so much time has passed this is now quite a mess.

"alive and well, and has been for a long, long time"
Yes, but not thanks to MS, therefore the Microsoft antitrust investigations.
Example:
A U.S. judge ruled late Tuesday that the consent decree enforcing a landmark antitrust settlement reached among Microsoft, the federal government and 17 states would remain in effect until November 2009
http://news.smh.com.au/technology/analysts-unfazed-by-microsoft-ruling-20070314-23z.html
--------------
"But if we’re talking about consumers"
Two Posibilities:

1-You and likes: not problems at all ("that’s fun")

2-Your mom and likes, maybe others will be choosing by themselves -again- but they will have the opportunity and that's the important thing. And why not? perhaps someone will learn something in the process.

Themselves= them (Your mom and likes)

"It'll be a bit tricky"

Really I'm not sure,at the beginning use the codec (mp3,etc) in Ubuntu was difficult , now it's a simply one touch.
Do not forget;
The adaptive capacity of human beings is legendary

Quote Meem "the vast majority of them don’t give a hoot about which browser they use..."
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I would beg to differ. Look at the record downloads firefox had on its launch, look at the PR IE has received about its impotence in regards to exploits. People are beginning to associate net browsing with a name other than IE (IMO) I think when people see the improvement (IMO) of using Firefox over IE, they do give a hoot.
-
I think given a choice, people will be very keen to try an alternative, since in personal experience every user Ive introduced an alternative to is amazed with the performance increase of using FF over IE.
-
Or am I wrong? Has anyone here had a better experience through Internet Explorer than through Firefox or another alternative?
-
I will agree with the post that says Opera is rubbish. IMO it is. However IMO although it is indeed hopeless, in terms of performance its still streets ahead of IE.
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Maybe using a Linux platform I have higher expectations of what is functional and if people are happy to put up with IE then great, more power to them.

Its interesting that all the MS salesmen are concentrating on the technical solution when they do not have a clue how things work.

DontKnow - you are a moron. Is that how you sell Windows? If anyone has to die I would choose Microsoft partners. Microsoft actually produce technology and just need an injection of competition. Partners are just greasy salesmen who don't know anything and are sponging off the success of our industry, it will be a good day when you are not needed any more. The excessive profits caused by Microsoft's monopoly has fed you but soon it will run out.

IE should be forced to drop all proprietary standards and only introduce a feature if it is part of a standard and is interoperable across all browsers. I noticed this very interesting comment in the IE blog.

* One syntax that works across all IE8 modes
* One syntax that is interoperable with other browsers
* One syntax that is consistent with the standard

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/01/16/accessibility-improved-aria-support-in-the-IE8-RC.aspx

If that was mandated by EU law for everything they do then we would start to see some real movement in the web. Remember MS has been deliberately holding it back to keep their monopoly in the desktop (with win32).

Maybe the IE team know something we do not? The original Opera complaint was about standards so its only fair that the punishment would include standards.

@Anonymouse :
"t'll be a bit tricky. Back in the DoJ case I was laughing as Bill Gates said that the web browser was an inextricable part of the operating system. At the time MS could probably have simply pulled the things out.
These days MS makes so much use of IE for update purposes; even if you use the MS Updater. Most MSWinduhs software makers also rely on IE"
----------------------------------------------------
Not as much as you would image, actually. I have removed IE, WMP, and Outlook from my XP installs back awhile ago as a project. Basically you had to turn off windows file protection. If course it would simply reinstall itself from system restore, or ask for the install cd, and do it that way. Unless you turned off system restore, and did not give it the install disk or made your own slipstreamed cd buy editing out the IE parts in the cab files. Lot of work, but without IE is was lots more stable and seemed faster as well.

Only seen one app that needed IE, but then I would admit that I did not install many apps either.

So MS will have to put something else in for updates, not a big deal.

@Draoi Dubh :
"I wish that a person such as myself could buy a PC without an operating system pre-loaded, it would help me save time from wiping it out."
--------------------------------------------------
It seems we agree a lot more than expected. Also bet you hate the fact that some Vista machines only come with that restore partition, without an install dvd. I had trouble believing that at first when people brought those computers in to me to work on.
-------------------------------------------------
And for the folks that are so worried about how they going get IE or another browser on there machines, I say, if you cannot figure that one out, you probably are one of the same people that will not update or renew your antivirus when the free trial runs out too. Maybe, just maybe, its not a bad thing for some of these folks to give up computing, or think about learning instead.

This is a good thing that the EU is doing. But as Goblin has said, its only a small victory for freedom. If you think you going be able to buy that Windows without IE anyplace other than the EU, forget it. The Battle continues, and freedom will not be archived until we can buy our computers without having to pay the world's richest fatcats for substandard monopoly software, that is pre-installed by using unethical means.

Quoth the Goblin "I think given a choice, people will be very keen to try an alternative, since in personal experience every user Ive introduced an alternative to is amazed with the performance increase of using FF over IE."
-
-
Your experience has been largely mine as well; people who try out FF typically think it's great. Myself included. But I'll reiterate: People are given a choice *today*, they simply choose to not exercise it because for their purposes the differences aren't compelling enough. Change is hard, and people who do not care passionately about technology and squeezing every last drop of performance out of their systems are not inclined to alter that which "works". I am not this consumer. I'm fairly certain you are not either, but the reality is they make up the bulk of computer users in the world.
-
The good news is once the OEMs get richer by taking contracts for various browsers, those same consumers who don't care what browser they are using today will continue to not care once that browser is something other than IE. It's a non-event for them. But the OEMs will be thrilled, and so will the browser makers, but let's not fool ourselves into believing this benefits actual consumers.
-
In and of itself, there is nothing inherently evil with innovation in the supply chain, or providing additional revenue streams for resellers, but my personal believe is that a government directing the flow of competiton is unhealthy, especially in a segment that shows strong signs of competitive life without intervention.
-
PS: I stole your hyphen technique, I hope you don't mind ;)

Most people agree that virtually any browser is better than IE, so if there is already competition why does Firefox only have 20% and the rest < 5% each?

If the market was working properly then we would see the best browser with the biggest share. Instead we see the worst one with the most share because it is installed by default and is the only browser to work with certain sites.

Microsoft used IE and their dominance in the OS to encourage web designers to use code which is non-standard and only works in IE. This has damaged competition more than anything because it is impossible to implement IE standards because they are not documented. This is what Opera was complaining about (not the fact you cannot remove IE from the system).

New to this board, so maybe someone can enlighten me. My last post was held for approval, but all priors were not. I don't think I've been outrageous, so is there some sort of cap?

billybob: "If the market was working properly then we would see the best browser with the biggest share. Instead we see the worst one with the most share because it is installed by default and is the only browser to work with certain sites"
--
--
You are absolutely right, and that is exactly, in fact, what is happening:

IE CONTINUES LOSING MARKET SHARE TO OPEN SOURCE BROWSERS
hhttp:/arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2009/01/12/ie-loses-market-share-to-open-source-browsers
"... show the browser [IE] down almost 7% from the beginning of last year, continuing to slide down as time goes on. On the other hand, open source browsers such as Firefox and Google Chrome are constantly increasing. Firefox's market share increased by about 4% in 2008."

MICROSOFT'S IE LOSING MARKET SHARE RAPIDLY, FIREFOX GAINING
hhttp://topnews.us/content/21973-microsoft-s-ie-losing-market-share-rapidly-firefox-gaining
"... [IE] lost nearly 8 points in the last year, resulting in its lowest amount of market share since 1999"
"In fact, the 8 percent share that IE lost was picked mostly by its closest rivals - Firefox gained 4.5 points; and Safari nearly 2.4 points"

All evidence points to a healthy free market revolution. I don't need the goverment making choices for me, and neither does the consumer.

Meem says:
"All evidence points to a healthy free market revolution. I don't need the goverment making choices for me, and neither does the consumer."........

Ah but, the gov taking out IE, is making the consumer make the choice, not MS. That is the whole point. The gov is putting the choice back in.

MS wants IE bundled with Windows, and has tried to do everything it can, it make it next to impossible to remove. The average user will not be able to remove it. Ask your self why MS has done this?

Also the programs that depend or use parts of IE. These programs, for the most part just look up a link and display them on the internet. But some are more parasitic, in that they might need activeX to reg a program, or in a few cases, they actually use the core of IE. The later type of apps, that use the core IE as part of their apps, are like Winmodems. A piece of software is allowed to be used, but is patented and closed, and can only be used in Windows. A huge piece of lock-in.

The sooner Internet Exploder goes to the trash heap of software history, the better for all consumers.

Even though there is some competition, you can look at IE 6 numbers for an indication of lock-in via non-standard HTML. I think it will take another 10 years before Firefox gets the share it deserves, this isn't indicative of a market working in favour of consumers, that's why the EU got involved. They had too, it is what we the people asked them to do.

Lets look at the last time the EU got involved and what the consequences were.

They forced MS to open their protocols under RAND terms which means that all mobile phones can now connect to exchange servers and we can have cheap NAS boxes which work properly. I think that decision was far better than the N version, I hope we dont se an IE-less Windows this time because it will not achieve anything.

The main problem is all the sites that use IE only stop people using Firefox or other browsers. Even something as small as forcing IE to change its user agent string will cause a massive change in perception (ie. people will see the site as broken not the browser). It would also force lazy site owners to update their sites or fade into history where they belong.

The fact is that the EU is most likely going to make Microsoft unbundle IE in those countries, no matter which side of the debate you are on. Beyond that look at the wording of the EU suggesting that MS conforms to "standards." Also, a fine will be very likely as well.

So the question is, what will Microsoft do?

Will they do what they did back in the days of the US anti-trust court case? You know, have all their paid shills, sock puppets, and dead people write to newspapers and complain. That was their standard playbook. Lets see what they do this time.

Quote sam "Ah but, the gov taking out IE, is making the consumer make the choice, not MS. That is the whole point. The gov is putting the choice back in."

--

Forcing people to choose is not the same thing as giving them a choice.

And again, it's not the people who will be choosing any more than they are today. It is the OEMs who will choose what to pre-install, based on cash incentives.

Meem Says:

"And again, it's not the people who will be choosing any more than they are today. It is the OEMs who will choose what to pre-install, based on cash incentives."

You're more than right. The more I think about things, the righter your statement is.

Let me go further on what you have said today...

Microsoft is Microsoft, and what Microsoft does, Microsoft has been doing and achieving to do within their own means. Meaning, they're not going to change on their own. There are a wonderful mega-marketing company predicated on pushing software to everyone. They're (basically) like any other company in the marketing.

I think, well looking at everything, lets go after the major OEMs and challenge them. If people vote with their pocketbooks and say, we don't want Microsoft pre-installed on the PCs or Laptop and other such devices, we'll go elsewhere, such as your competitors that offer other alternatives -- Really it's this simple (thinking that is).

Listen, we as those that are in the "Know" need to perpetuate this mindset to others and force Dell, Gateway, HP, Acer, and all the others to stop setting machines up as if Microsoft is Apple and attempting to sell us "their System" or their way that they want to mandate us on how we use our computers. Dell, HP, and all the others, "Look this isn't Apple, you ain't Apple, if I want Apple, I'll go to Apple -- I want a PC with whatever I want as an Operating System. Microsoft don't own me, don't own this box, they only own the license -- I don't want to 'lease' this license or pay for it!"

For those who don't like IE, you'll have a choice, and do already on using an alternate browser, but if you want to break away from the perceived totalitarian way that things are with the choices available, don't go after Microsoft, go after the major OEMS!

Yeah, let's vote with our wallets!

MS wants IE bundled with Windows, and has tried to do everything it can, it make it next to impossible to remove. The average user will not be able to remove it. Ask your self why MS has done this?

Also the programs that depend or use parts of IE. These programs, for the most part just look up a link and display them on the internet. But some are more parasitic, in that they might need activeX to reg a program, or in a few cases, they actually use the core of IE. The later type of apps, that use the core IE as part of their apps, are like Winmodems. A piece of software is allowed to be used, but is patented and closed, and can only be used in Windows. A huge piece of lock-in.

Yes, if us let European Union take control over Microsoft for violated European antitrust laws (i.e;unbundled IE) it's possible that PERHAPS someone (OEMs or others)
WOULD have now the control (apparently the European antitrust laws only are applicable to MS).
Therefore do not change nothing let to wonderful MS have the control BECAUSE THEY "KNOW".

It sounds ridiculous, is not it? (and after, they want to us think that they only are MS'fans!!)

---------------------

"Forcing people to choose is not the same thing as giving them a choice."

What really it mean ; if now that MS have the whole thing to its favor (desktop control, IE bundling,etc) and MS is losing marked against Firefox. Do you could imagine if MS would
lose its advantage?...debacle, collapse!

--------------------

Blame the OEMs!!
Herr...maybe us could first finish with the convicted offender and after that with its accomplices? (if there is someone, of course.)

Quote Meem"let's not fool ourselves into believing this benefits actual consumers."
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Id agree with most of your post except this point. IMO the platform I am using is far better than the Windows one I was. Without this type of PR people will never be exposed to alternatives in the first place (IMO).
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Still today you can find people who dont know what FF is and believe that IE is the only way to surf the Net.
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The benefit to the customers will be a better internet experience if they choose to adopt a different browser (IMO) and the other benefit will be that maybe Microsoft might consider trying to "up it game" with the next version of IE in an attempt to ensure people dont adopt an alternative.
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Both of the above seem valid reasons for why this would benefit the end user. Microsoft (IMO) will learn that it cant simply release software that everyone will use because they are the only player in the game (and known about)
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and its no problem stealing my - idea! It wasnt mine, I saw it elsewhere.

@Billybob
[Quote]"I would like to see some companies file on the practices of sales of windows to OEM's. The fact that you never see a dual boot system of windows and Linux on the same computer to be sold, another one for the EU."[/Quote]
No way are you going to see Linux cos no one is going to pay an OEM for putting Linux on there. Microsoft will pay for adding Windows.

@standards in Office
I really (REALLY!) wonder if Microsoft can be forced to use standards. If they can be forced to actually change the way their program works, isn't that beyond anti-trust? Adding IE or leaving it out is a much simpler discussion.
Wikipedia says:
[Quote]European Community competition law [...]
Cartels, or control of collusion and other anti-competitive practices which has an effect on the EU (or, since 1994, the European Economic Area). This is covered under Articles 81 of the Treaty of the European Community (TEC).
Monopolies, or preventing the abuse of firms' dominant market positions. This is governed by Article 82 TEC. This article also gives rise to the Commission's authority under the next area,
Mergers, control of proposed mergers, acquisitions and joint ventures involving companies which have a certain, defined amount of turnover in the EU/EEA. This is governed by the Council Regulation 139/2004 EC (the Merger Regulation).
State aid, control of direct and indirect aid given by Member States of the European Union to companies. Covered under Article 87 EC (ex Article 92). [/Quote]

The only thing they could go on is a monopoly... but really Microsoft office and the DOC format have been around for ages. Even when people still used Wordperfect. And basically it has only become a 'problem' when the internet came around and people started to share documents like that. They were all in house before that and communication was on paper or by EDIFACT or the likes. They did not create a monopoly around the doc format, the internet basically did.
I wonder if they can blame that on Microsoft.

Other than pointing out blame, they may still request them to change it. But I wonder on what ground. Anyone can open a doc file with a simple doc reader. Basically PDF is the same that way.
Open stadards are being promoted and it might well bite MS in the arse if they do not change their ways conceirning open standards, but that is not for the EU to worry about.

Charlie: That wasn't me that said that. But I would like to ask a question.

"No way are you going to see Linux cos no one is going to pay an OEM for putting Linux on there. Microsoft will pay for adding Windows."

Are you saying that Microsoft is going to start paying OEMs to install Windows? That would be a major change from the past. I am not sure how profitable they would be if they had to pay for each copy of Windows distributed.

P.S. Aside from the netbooks and major OEMs offering Linux as an option, a few large manufacturers are offering a BIOS based fast booting Linux environment. They are starting to see the benefits of being able to customise the OS to help sell their products. See the Latitude-ON (Dell), Splashtop (Asus) and HyperSpace (Phoenix) Linux distros. AFAIK they are paying to develop these distros, they are not being paid to do it.

This is about browsers though not Windows.

The major company that pays for a browser to be installed is Google and they are in the best place to capitalise on that. Mozilla makes millions by encouraging people to install a browser which uses Google by default. I am not sure that MS makes enough from Live to be able to compete with Google here.

Microsoft is a serial offender and the EU is right in pursuing them.

You seem to be arguing that a thief, if he has stolen many times, should be allowed to continue his practice without risk of government interference.

Micorosoft's IE has polluted the web for years by not supporting standards correctly. Users -- even Windows users -- deserve better.

Hi,

I agree with Meem with this one. Windows is MS's product. If they could not add whatever they want in their own product, there is something wrong about the intelect in the world.
-
Yeah I too want to develop a better calculator and ask EU to sue Microsoft...
-
See Linux. It is great, but also realy, really sucks. I fresh install Fedora on a Dell R200 and have to lurk for about two hours to discover why the ETH0 was not getting up on reboot. And hey, I'm not a newbee. To ask my father to run a script to download IE/OPERA/Chrome? You must be on crack...
-
Why not just make the browers producers spend money in advertisement? Microsoft spent, why Google don't? Hey, it is better to make the EU and USAJD force Microsoft to put my product into their one.
-
Why Linux distros can bundle anything they want and nobody see a problem?
-
This one is dificult: Should Microsoft develop IE for Linux, would any distro agree to bundle it? For Free? Wonder what all the anti-MS inside the linux comunity would react on that.
-
Why Java redist (and many other soft) bundle the Google desktop search? Isn't that the same Microsoft actions everybody likes to hate?
-
What about SAP? Dont't they have the mayority market share in ERP system? Maybe a anti-trust case there should be done also... Wait, SAP is a EU company...
-
Let them (MS) do whatever they want and the market to compete. Want to do better, develop it and advertise it, and try to sell it. If you cant, let others do it.

Genesio.

Some advice to Google: The cop you help to get Microsoft will one day come after you. In Sept. 2007, I warned that the European appeals court ruling against Microsoft would embolden EU regulators. Google is a bundler, too, by tying search and other services together with Chrome—and the company has monopoly-size search share in Europe. When the next chapter of the "European drama unfolds, many Google may wish they had stood with Microsoft rather than against it."

I wouldn't be surprised if Google will push against the IE bundling in Europe. After all, it did the same in the US. As for what it has to lose, well, it lost Yahoo already. Microsoft came after it on anti-trust grounds to block that deal. True, Google had pushed against IE7 in the US first. But let's be serious -- do you think Microsoft wouldn't go after Google on anti-trust grounds whenever it can? Both companies risk threatening their dominance in various areas when they go that route and generate irony when they do. But they can't help themselves.

As for Google bundling search, they don't. Chrome will use your default search choice and not change it. If you're using Google, it sticks with that. If you're using Microsoft, it also sticks with that. In either case, you have to manually change the default setting. IE7 works the same way.

Its going be interesting to see what M$ will do next, besides rallying the Shills on the blogs to try to sway public opinion and put pressure on the EU. A move that could surely backfire.

There is no reason to discuss if the EU is right or wrong in whats its doing, as its already a done deal. So why do so many people want to discuss that, go back to paragraph one.

I think in small ways this has to affect the release of Windows Seven and Azure. If Azure and maybe other updaters in Seven are dependent on IE being included in Windows, it could set back the release dates of those products. Even though this EU decision might only affect the EU countries, that is still the larger M$ market. But at this point it is not even clear that IE will have to be removed at all, it could be that the EU will require that other browsers be included or give the option to install during Windows Seven installation. M$ Would have to include competing software on its install cd/dvd. This is also a possibility that should not be ruled out.

Quote chips: "There is no reason to discuss if the EU is right or wrong in whats its doing, as its already a done deal. So why do so many people want to discuss that, go back to paragraph one"
----------
----------
Two reasons:
1) It is not a done deal:
"The Statement of Objections expresses the Commission's preliminary view that the inclusion of Internet Explorer in Windows since 1996 has violated European competition law."
That word "preliminary" in there means it has not yet been decided. Granted, it means it likely will be decided this way, but the process allows at this point for objection, debate, and additional information that could influence a final decision. Now, obviously us few humble folk here aren't going to directly affect that outcome, but I think it's healthy to debate and hear each other's views. Questioning precedent and assumptions in the company of others is a great way to hone one's own views!
-

2) Just because something has been decided (which, per above, this has not, but let's go with it), does not mean it should not be discussed and debated. In such manner are laws changed, and outrages remedied. It was in such a manner, in fact, that this issue came before the EU at all. Again, healthy and open debate, at any level, is the lifeblood of a free society. And yes, I know how grandiose that sounds, but I feel much more passionately about that topic than I do which browser I choose to use ;)

@Meem;
Some good points there, but somehow I think that Microsoft and freedom, do just not go together well in the same sentence. Sort of like security and Micro$oft should never be said in the same sentence

Windows worm numbers 'skyrocket'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7832652.stm

"Infections of a worm that spreads through low security networks, memory sticks, and PCs without the latest security updates is "skyrocketing".
----------------------------------------------------
Real freedom is about more than just being free. Its about the ability to view the source code, or have someone else do it, so you know whats its doing. It about being able to freely modify that code, if you should wish.

GNU/Linux is real freedom
www.distrowatch.com

chips recommends Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Mint, Sidux download a free live cd and try it out.

Meem;

Excellent points made, really. Nice to have folks with a sense of reason.

----------------------------------------------

Draoi Recommends: Any software or operating platform you wish to use.

Draoi Uses: Microsoft Windows 2008 Enterprise Server x64, Adobe Master's Collection CS4, Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise, Creative MediaSource 5.0, Microsoft SQL Enterprise, iTunes, Visual Studio 2008, IE 7.0, FF 3.0, Sony SoundForge 8.0 Professional, Adobe Flex 3.0, QuickBooks Professional 8.0, WinRar 3.80, Macrovision Installshield Professional, Ashampoo Burning Studio, Symantec EndPoint 11.0, and anything else that makes my life easier and more productive, let alone makes my mortgage payments...

@Draoi:

So how many "mortgage payments" would the average person be able to make not buying all that expensive software?
Of course its sort of free if you did not buy it, and instead pirated it. More reason to use linux, so you don't have to pirate anything.
Of course, you can still run all this expensive software in Linux by using Windows in a VM, and some will run with wine as well. Of course, with folks like Andre, they get the Shill edition of software, all free from M$, not meaning you of course.

So I don't think you solution, which works fine for you, is right for most people.

Why not Tally that list of software up, and tell the folks what it costs? The Linux solution cost nothing, is free, and no malware problem comparable to Windows.

chips wrote:

"So how many "mortgage payments" would the average person be able to make not buying all that expensive software?"

-------------------------------------------------
Did I strike another nerve on you? =;o)

Who the f^&k said I was a an average user??? -- Don't answer that, chips, I'm a bit farther along than the average user. It's obvious that my business and company I own and operate does very well and will continue to do so to afford great talent, hardware, and software -- Biggest investment and the most important is my folks.

No, for the record, I pay for all our licenses for the products listed above and then some, such as Studio 3D Professional and things.

If I wanted to dabble with Linux, I would run it in Hyper-V Microsoft VM Ware, not the other way around.

I'm not naive enough to even begin to think that what and how I personally or otherwise do things is for everyone out there using a PC. Cripes, if it were so easy, everyone would be doing things like I do, and others like me do.

I also do not have malware problems, is there threats out there -- Yup, a metric ton of them for us Microsoft folks. There is also a plethora of great information out here on the Net to help wise up people, and protect themselves.

As far as a price list goes, why do I need to do that, people can Google and find out quickly the costs per seat, per user, per installation, can't they not?

Personally, I have no use for Linux, and not saying it's bad, it just doesn't apply to my world at all. Don't get me wrong, I love testing and evaluating products, and if anyone glances at my list, they would assume that I am not just representing (as a fan) of any Microsoft products. I love Adobe, can't beat it, and there is nothing that Linux software can touch it -- What, Gimp? Please...

And please don't insult me (not saying you would), but FrontPage, or the latter product for Web Development other than VS 2008 is a joke from Microsoft compared to the power of Dreamweaver -- What does Linux really have to compete to a professional development suite like this or with Adobe Flex?

No need to answer, they (Linux don't - Not yet anyways, but here's hoping), the other guys just don't cut it.

My workstation is over $8,000.00 alone, and I have purchased two more so my folks can utilize the creative software and 3D rendering, video, and sound suites without adding a level of frustration in waiting (days it seems) for processing and rendering. That's for my creative and graphic multimedia crew. Our database and VS Code writers don't need the horsepower, but the quad-core HP Intel machines makes things plenty smooth for them.

Sure, this stuff is expensive, but not only do we do very well and we are very good at what we do, but I get the support from these companies, all included in the price, and sometimes, really more so than not, it's money well spent, and as others have made mention, we see "value" in what we use, we really do.

Argumentatively, Free doesn't mean Best.

chips wrote:

"So how many "mortgage payments" would the average person be able to make not buying all that expensive software?"

-------------------------------------------------
Did I strike another nerve on you? =;o)

Who the f^&k said I was a an average user??? -- Don't answer that, chips, I'm a bit farther along than the average user. It's obvious that my business and company I own and operate does very well and will continue to do so to afford great talent, hardware, and software -- Biggest investment and the most important is my folks.

No, for the record, I pay for all our licenses for the products listed above and then some, such as Studio 3D Professional and things.

If I wanted to dabble with Linux, I would run it in Hyper-V Microsoft VM Ware, not the other way around.

I'm not naive enough to even begin to think that what and how I personally or otherwise do things is for everyone out there using a PC. Cripes, if it were so easy, everyone would be doing things like I do, and others like me do.

I also do not have malware problems, is there threats out there -- Yup, a metric ton of them for us Microsoft folks. There is also a plethora of great information out here on the Net to help wise up people, and protect themselves.

As far as a price list goes, why do I need to do that, people can Google and find out quickly the costs per seat, per user, per installation, can't they not?

Personally, I have no use for Linux, and not saying it's bad, it just doesn't apply to my world at all. Don't get me wrong, I love testing and evaluating products, and if anyone glances at my list, they would assume that I am not just representing (as a fan) of any Microsoft products. I love Adobe, can't beat it, and there is nothing that Linux software can touch it -- What, Gimp? Please...

And please don't insult me (not saying you would), but FrontPage, or the latter product for Web Development other than VS 2008 is a joke from Microsoft compared to the power of Dreamweaver -- What does Linux really have to compete to a professional development suite like this or with Adobe Flex?

No need to answer, they (Linux don't - Not yet anyways, but here's hoping), the other guys just don't cut it.

My workstation is over $8,000.00 alone, and I have purchased two more so my folks can utilize the creative software and 3D rendering, video, and sound suites without adding a level of frustration in waiting (days it seems) for processing and rendering. That's for my creative and graphic multimedia crew. Our database and VS Code writers don't need the horsepower, but the quad-core HP Intel machines makes things plenty smooth for them.

Sure, this stuff is expensive, but not only do we do very well and we are very good at what we do, but I get the support from these companies, all included in the price, and sometimes, really more so than not, it's money well spent, and as others have made mention, we see "value" in what we use, we really do.

Argumentatively, Free doesn't mean Best.

Draoi Dubh says:
"Who the f^&k said I was a an average user???"
----------------------------------------------------
Nobody. In fact what I said was:
"So how many "mortgage payments" would the average person be able to make not buying all that expensive software?" Also, there is no need for profanity.

In fact, Draoi, I have never ever thought of you as an "average usr."

The fact that you have an $8000 computer sets you apart from most "average users". Forgive me for being a bit of a country bumkin here, but I have never seen an computer that costs $8000, guess I need to get to the store more often. Although Andre has a HP desktop system that costs over $6000. Is yours an HP or a cray, and did you buy it from Andre? Inquiring minds want to know.

BTW, I do use Gimp, it works just fine for me, thank you. A 28mb program compared to 700mb of Photoshop 7, which was a great program, but costs a few bucks. I save space and money and get what I need.

What does it matter anyway, as the "average user" can get those programs running in a VM, wine, crossover in Linux, or by keeping your old XP license and dual booting with Linux. A person (not meaning you Droai) doesn't have to give up their old windows software just because they try or decide to use Linux. One doesn't have to make a choice, they can use both, if that is what they want to.

Hi chips:
This is good
Virus sinks Royal Navy fleet comms
http://www.itwire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22716&Itemid=53
The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that, while no weaponry systems or navigational networks were impacted by the virus, other IT systems had been hit.

It declined to admit if reports of some 75 percent of Royal Navy systems being affected were accurate, but did not deny this either.
-----
I wonder if the third world war will be not started for MS.

@Marco,

I remember reading back awhile that the Royal Navy was going use windows on their Subs. And thought then it would somehow get infected.

What can you say when professional bloggers like Joe Wilcox Vista computer get infected? And what can you say when the Royal Navy can't protect Windows either? What is the average user going do? 80% of the "AVERAGE" windows users computers are already infected.

Marco, is this not a good reason to run Linux? No malware problems for my linux. I hope the EU will do something to force M$ to make Windows safer. Windows is just a big malware target.

www.distrowatch.com
Chips recommends Mepis PCLINUXOS Mint Sidux all free downloadable for live cd's

Chips;I remember reading back awhile that the Royal Navy....

--------------------

Royal Navy completes Windows for Submarines™ rollout
Trident sub's new Windows LAN fitted in 18 day

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/16/windows_for_submarines_rollout/

The Royal Navy and BAE Systems plc were pleased as punch yesterday to announce that their implementation of Windows for Submarines™ is complete ahead of schedule. Windows boxes on Ethernet LANs are now in control of the UK's nuclear-propelled and nuclear-armed warship fleet.

The programme is called Submarine Command System Next Generation (SMCS NG), and uses varying numbers of standard multifunction consoles with two LCD screens, hooked up on an internal Ethernet network installed on each sub. Initial reports as the programme developed suggested that the OS in question would be Windows 2000, but those who have worked on it have since informed the Reg that in fact it is mostly based on XP

--------
Really this is a serious issue.

Marco says:
"Really this is a serious issue."
----------------------------------------------------
Yep, especially if that windows OS, or should I say infected maybe windows OS, has any control on the firing mechanism for those nuke missiles. (I can't help myself, just have to make a joke) Kind of give the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) new meaning.

Even the US military is using Linux more and more in their fire control software.

Kind of give the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) new meaning.

Ha,ha,ha...but macabre !!

chips;

sounds like Draoi is certainly not an average user. as far as computer goes, workstations do add up quick, plush monitors, soundcards, video cards in crossfire or sli, drive space, memory. ever heard of Apple, surely you have, right?

looking at this guy's list, sounds like he works in it designing and programming stuff.

yeah, you do sound like a real country bumpkin. "Forgive me for being a bit of a country bumkin here, but I have never seen an computer that costs $8000, guess I need to get to the store more often."

Draoi writes: "Personally, I have no use for Linux, and not saying it's bad, it just doesn't apply to my world at all. Don't get me wrong, I love testing and evaluating products, and if anyone glances at my list, they would assume that I am not just representing (as a fan) of any Microsoft products. I love Adobe, can't beat it, and there is nothing that Linux software can touch it -- What, Gimp? Please..."

i donno, but chips, the guy makes it quite clear that linux doesn't work for him, why are you pushing linux so hard against him, when he just says it doesn't work for him. i mean, golly dude, really?

gimp is a real joke in comparison to even paintshop pro let alone photoshop. i know, i have gimp. gimp isn't for everyone, i'm glad it works for you, dude.

am i am just as happy for draoi using whatever he needs to, but i notice he's not pushing crap on people.

chips, you're sounding like the shill you complain so much about. cripes who cares whatever draoi uses or others use -- he don't give a flying "f" about it, and if this hurts your sensitive eyes, too bad.

we were all talking about the EU stuff anyhow. i'm a Linux user and damned proud of the product, it works great for me. get a life and get on with it.

Draoi; apparently your blurbaige at the bottom of your post seemed to be, obviously, "troll" bate stirring up the bumpkins on this post.

my son, he's 32 and he has the new Apple Pros that run right up there with yours. he's a designer, owns his own company and of course has several machines just like this. It's money well spent when your day to day job demands the best things.

since you seem like a chap who isn't running some sort of a campaign and have some rationale, what do you think of Apple?

Ha, ha,ha!
Draoi, Hey chips, Bill and another shills; that was really a pathetic attempt.ha,ha,ha.

---------------

Virus sinks Royal Navy fleet comms
http://www.itwire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22716&Itemid=53
The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that, while no weaponry systems or navigational networks were impacted by the virus, other IT systems had been hit.

It declined to admit if reports of some 75 percent of Royal Navy systems being affected were accurate, but did not deny this either.

@Marco,
The shills are not not hard to figure out are they. When they can't respond, they change names and tactics. Notice Draoi seemed offended because I had the distrowatch and linux post at the end of my comment. Also notice he wanted to talk about the (tactic) of high end (mostly) apps that he thought were superior to linux apps. But he wasn't expecting to be shut down by being told that it is possible to run those, I one way or another, and not have to buy the latest version of Gates Bloatware.
Maybe Draoi will be back tomorrow after he has done some heavy thinking over that bottle of Jamaican rum. Or maybe he and Bill, are identical twins, or sock puppets. Either way, they know they cannot win here anymore, that people will not believe that Windows is secure, or bug free stable. They have lost on those counts, so the tactics are changing.

Of course, if Bill or/and Droai would like to post a "How to secure Windows" for the Royal Navy, or Joe Wilcox here, I am sure they would appreciate that. As long as they keep it to less than several hundred pages. LOL

Hi Marco & Chips!
-
On the other link Bill has been trying to "outsmart" any alternatives viewpoint. Then as if by a miracle "Chillbill" turns up offering him support and advise.
-
Its strange how these "new" handles rarely stay long?
-
I had to laugh at Draoi's latest comment of "Argumentatively, Free doesn't mean Best."
to which I would reply: and neither does something that costs. I wonder if Draoi would rave about Linux if I burned it on a DVD and charged him £200 for it?
-
That to me is classic MS propaganda "its free, so it cant be good" - Although looking at a bundled IE or the free Firefox Id say they have a nerve suggesting that.
-
Are people so brainwashed that they truly believe that only something you pay for is good? Obviously not and if this site is any indicator of peoples general feeling, then I think that is a good sign of a future where no single company/OS/distro has total domination.
-
Theres a good link I found, Ive posted it on the new thread here. It highlights performance between Win 7 beta and XP. The results are virtually the same. Can someone tell me when Microsoft is going to make Windows 7 the speed demon we've all heard about?

@chips b malroy:
The users Draoi Dubh and Hey Chips have the same flowery tone and the same poor grammar as I-Man and portuno.

Adobe Master's Collection CS4, indeed. Adobe's CS4 product is "Creative Suite", not "Master's Collection". The idiotic nincompoop who wrote that is neither in possession of it nor a user of it. It's just a copy error from whatever software list she was using in an attempt to appear accomplished.

Your bravery in feeding these trolls is entertaining, I admit. But please don't take offense to the trolls' insults; they are a reflection on themselves and not on you.

Cheers!

@Marco and Goblin:

Goblin says:
"Its strange how these "new" handles rarely stay long?"
------------------------------------------------------
Not really. Marco and I have seen the way the MS shills posts here. They have their PR points, they attack the messenger, they talk in generalities, without any facts or links. Except one gave links a long time ago, which were also easy to shoot down, as they came from "Just the facts" type websites, or "studies" paid for by Micro$oft. Draoi style of writing was very similar to one that went by the handle of computer guy/Neil.

Also, when they lose the arguement, they often become troll-like, have you noticed? I think this is a method used to sometimes cover who they work for. But one thing is for sure, the one getting paid, is not going away, even if he loses, he is back soon, as that is how he is paid, to spread FUD.

I will go back to my old ways more, and talk less but post more links. Perhaps I will leave the debating to you guys more.

Thanks Philosopher for that information.

Looks like this thread is in its death throes, but I just want to comment on how much I enjoyed the dialogue, at least that part of it which was relevant to the topic and not hyperbolic fervor.

It was my first time participating in a discussion on this forum (honest!), and I found it and you folks engaging and interesting. Thanks, I'll be back!

I don't see a problem bundling IE on Windows now. In the time of original browser wars this knocked out to Netscape but now, a browser is not a novelty any more. MS used it's dominance in one market to gain dominance and kill competence on a different market (even blackmailed the OEMs), the damage is done and now we can't talk of two different markets. What I see wrong is making impossible to remove IE explorer. Getting OS core problems for malware attacks to something that is in the application the level. What I see wrong too is forbidding to OEM's to bundle software that competes with MS products. Why an OEM can't or doesn't dare to offer a Windows box with additional basic SW that makes a better one stop solution?

- Decent DVD burning sw
- Open office
- File management and indexing
- Personal information management and calendars
- Photo management
- Music management database
- decent audio and photo edition
- Vector graphics
- File indexing
- Google Earth
- PDF creation
- Flash
- Skype
- scientific calculator
- etc, etc.

@Chips.
-
Im sending an email to the link Dranoi was putting in his handle and asking if they can confirm or deny that the poster here is in some way related to the comments here.
-
If he/she is, then great (although why have they stopped doing it?) and if he/she is not, then what was the motive behind putting that link up on the site? Was it a random link just to deceive? Ill let you know when I get a response.

EDIT
"that the poster here is in some way related to the comments here"
-
should read:
-
"that the poster here is in some way related to the website

@chips b malroy

I don't know what it is about your Linux fanboyism but the last time I tried it was during the Ubuntu fiesty fawn days, it didn't work out so great for me. You are certainly right that the install and setup of applications is easy just like Windows and Mac. The use of openoffice is very nice... just like Windows and Mac with their respective office suites. But where Linux falls flat on it's face is where most users like me need to do "the fun stuff". Before I get to explaining what that is, I'm sure I speak for a lot of users when I say that all of our peripherals we own (digital cameras, pdas, iphones, itouchs, video cameras) need to work seemlessly with our computers. Windows and Mac can do this very well.

The "fun stuff" I'm talking about is something that most users in their computing lives will eventually do. That is, working with pictures, videos, and music - molding them together and burning your creations to DVD. If you own an iphone or itouch, you will have encountered the problem that the most popular itunes clone called Banshee doesn't support them. Now what about the DRM protected tracks that I have... hmmm last time I tried it, it wouldn't play. Dealbreaker right there already.

Now on to pictures. While Linux has some functionality for album creation and viewing of photos, I find the printing options kind of lacking. It may have changed now, but when I tried it, there wasn't an option to autoarrange 4 pictures on an 8x10" and print it borderlessly full page. I had to go into GIMP and manually resize and rotate and place the pictures on the page and then print it out. Wow, what a waste of time.

Now on to videos. This is probably the worst of the bunch. I couldn't find a quality application that allowed me to do some simple editing of the clips (to remove the boring stuff) and add text, transitions, and other stuff. Of the apps that I could download, they lacked a lot of features and was really a product in the alpha stage not beta.

What I really wanted from Linux is a quality video editing software with some sort of timeline editing so that I could add my pictures, videos, and music and create a picture/video montage. However, since none exists, it is really a dealbreaker.

Contrast this to Windows and Mac. Windows Vista has all the capabilities outlined above builtin. They are called Windows Photo Gallery, iTunes, Windows Movie Maker. Simple and effective. If you require something more powerful, there is Adobe Premiere and Sony Vegas. Along the same lines, Mac has builtin software called iPhoto, itunes, and iMovie. It's even more simpler and probably more effective. Again, Adobe premiere and sony vegas are available if you require something more powerful.

So, what I'm trying to say is that, although Linux installs cleanly and has a good office suite, browser, and email, do you really think that's all we do 24/7/365?

While it's great that Linux is free and most of it's apps are free too, there is a hefty price to pay. Linux and it's associated apps lack focus that dedicated companies (with the closed source software) provide. Just look at the number of Linux distros out there, each with there own uniqueness and packaging requirements. Wouldn't it be nice if I could download any Linux app regardless of distro and have it work? As opposed to figuring out that it isn't packaged for your distro so you have to recompile it? You think your grandma wants to do that?

I don't know why I'm arguing Linux vs. Windows vs. Mac in this thread but I guess I got sick of reading of this crap about how great Linux is.

I guess I can sum up the above post with "Linux is great until you need to do something. Then it's not so great after all".

@chips b malroy

Oh, btw, as for the malware infested Windows machines vs. clean and immune linux machines. All you need to do is stop visiting the porn sites and you will have eliminated 99% of the potential malware out there.

Hi Chris; I found a interesting point in your post.
"but the last time I tried it was during the Ubuntu fiesty fawn days"

Really I recommend you try Ubuntu 8.10. It to improved a lot,after we can discuss about.

BTW:it's Feisty Fawn

-----------------------------
I interesting reading

PC PRO Last Edition:
STAR LETTER The great Ubuntu experiment
l've been a Windows admin for more than 14 years now, but recently l've round myself paying more attention to the Linux market, and with the release of Ubuntu 8.041 decided it was time to finally give it a try.
I started a couple of months ago by migrating my home computer, and round that the whole experience was incredibly painless and far easier than I was expecting. Being able to browse the Internet without worrying a bout vi ruses is q trite a surreal experience, although like any good Windows admin I'm still a little paranoid, which means l'm running NoScript and I set up regular backups just in case. To be fair, Ubuntu does have its rough edges: I had to disable the 3D desktop effects on one machine to resolve a problem with Ubuntu crashing, and my home printer is playing up a little, but other than that it's been remarkably trouble-free.
In fact, everything about Ubuntu feels faster than XP. Browsing files on my domain is snappier than it is with Explorer. Reading PDF and Office files feels quicker, too, with large PDFs being really responsive. One of the biggest differences, though, is writing CDs. Anybody who's done this in Windows will know what l'm talking about. Start burning a CD and you can forget about doing any useful work for the next live minutes; if you have a DVD to do you may as well write-off the morning. It's so bad that we actually bought an extra Computer at work, just for producing our DVD archives.
On the down side, though, while Ubuntu does nave good support for Windows networks, I can't manage completely without XP. After all, l'm managing a Windows network here, and there's an awful lot of software that's Windows only. Ubuntu does have a lot built in: I can browse files on the domain fine, and its Remote Desktop Protocol support is great for managing my servers, but things such as Group Policy and Active Directory really need a Windows XP workstation. Despite that, they'll have to pry Ubuntu from my dead hands.
---------------

Goblin; "It highlights performance between Win 7 beta and XP"
I said that; Windows arrived to its Best with XP, there is no motive to migrate to Seven

"stop visiting the porn sites"
Good advise but you could speak that to Royal Navy as well.

Virus sinks Royal Navy fleet comms
http://www.itwire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22716&Itemid=53
The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that, while no weaponry systems or navigational networks were impacted by the virus, other IT systems had been hit.

It declined to admit if reports of some 75 percent of Royal Navy systems being affected were accurate, but did not deny this either.
---------
BTW ;with Linux you can visit the porn sites with no problems at all (we are human beings, after all)

I interesting reading= It's a interesting read

Chris :wrote

"Now what about the DRM protected tracks that I have... hmmm last time I tried it, it wouldn't play. Dealbreaker right there already."
---------------------------------------------------

Who uses DRM protected tracks anymore? You burn your DRM protected tracks to a CD and rerip them back into your computer as a MP3 that will play on any machine, any computer, any MP3 player.

Whats the sense in only being able to play tracks only on a computer anyway? DRM has been rejected by the public and now most of the recording industry.

Chris :wrote

"Now on to videos. This is probably the worst of the bunch. I couldn't find a quality application that allowed me to do some simple editing of the clips (to remove the boring stuff) and add text, transitions, and other stuff. Of the apps that I could download, they lacked a lot of features and was really a product in the alpha stage not beta.

What I really wanted from Linux is a quality video editing software with some sort of timeline editing so that I could add my pictures, videos, and music and create a picture/video montage. However, since none exists, it is really a dealbreaker."

--------------------------------------------------

What is a deal breaker, is Nero (on Windows) unable to convert common video files into a DVD unless I cough up some serious money to get the more expensive Nero program to do the same thing that "Devede" on Linux does for free. Ah the "wonders" of expensive bloated proprietary software.

@ Chris

I don't really do any video editing, so I can't speak for how good any of these actually are, but here is a list of several Linux video editor programs, should you ever want to evaluate how they stack up from time to time:

http://icehot.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/the-best-ubuntu-video-editors/

@Will,
Thanks so much for the link.

By the way, my wife does a lot of serious home video production in high-def. After struggling on the Adobe Premier upgrade treadmill and reading the reviews (which even now with CS4 are not so flattering), she jumped on the iMac bandwagon, switched to Final Cut Express, and finds it works superbly, smoothly, and essentially bug-free. (No crashes, were were common with Premier. And no audio problems, which Premier was constantly plagued with.)

@Meme:
Re: "Looks like this thread is in its death throes"

Oh, ye of little faith!

@Marco;

Why did you steal this?

"Kind of give the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) new meaning."

cheznoble wrote that, not you...

Can't you think and write for yourself? So how much other things that you so called written that was penned by someone else?

@Chumpin' On Da' chips :

So tell me, what is your purpose here? Just to be a Troll? Or is it more than that, as I see you are somehow offended that Andre did not make the list. I have no doubt that you and Draoi are the same person, as several other handles as well.

You offer nothing to the conversation, and the only interest that I would have about you, is your motive?

@chumps;

Who or what is Draoi?

Do you always accuse someone being someone else, often?

Seems you do, and to coin someone else, "...What demons come to visit upon you at night?"

"Kind of give the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) new meaning."

My dear friend:

First: I don't wrote that (I had not the bright idea.)

Second: Do you know something called Parallel Thought?

Third :I recommend you
A- Improve your reading comprehension
B- a good book: 'Bright Minds, Beautiful Ideas Parallel Thoughts In Different Times': Bruno Munari, Charles & Ray Eames, Marti Guixe And Jurgen Bey

At last, can you give me the link please (not that I have doubt about you, but...you know there are too many liars..)

BTW:Your search - cheznoble Kind of give the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) new meaning. - did not match any documents. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=cheznoble++Kind+of+give+the+Blue+Screen+of+Death+(BSOD)+new+meaning.&btnG=Search&meta=
------------
He chips, there is someone...!
(second thoughts; maybe it was a hidden praise, he,he)

chumps;

I forgot to add, I really don't know who Draoi is, and I don't care, but maybe I am Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Richard Milhouse Nixon, Elvis, and Andre.

Maybe I'm the Ghost of Christmas Past, you know Neil of someone like that. Maybe I am someone all together different, and maybe I am no one at all.

^i^

"I'm the Ghost of Christmas Past"

Not my friend only one sad shill more

@Chumpin' On Da' chips :
Well Chump, I sleep very well at night, thank you for asking, BTW.

And from the other article, you called me a linux shill. Funny, since I get nada from any linux outfit. Except of course, free Linux software, which is of very high quality, and very malware resistant, unlike that RICH Fatcat Software from Redmond, that you are your other sock puppets promote. You know, the one that is a big malware target.

So again, lets discuss your motive, as that is the only thing remotely interesting about you. I say either you are a complete Troll, or since you and your sock puppets have run out of so called "facts" to debate with, that you would rather just try to destroy the debate here, and not have people think you are paid indirectly by MS. Also I notice that you and your other handles/sock puppets, have only been real active since Andre is not posting here so often. Coincidence?

Marco;

Are you that lame that anyone would believe you?

Who did you pen this time?

Are you that stupid? I thought there would be some intelligent people in England?

Ask your buddy, chumps for the exact link, he knows "cheznoble."

Beside Marco, you're the one in a deficit here.

^i^

My friend;
Generally I do not reply to people like you, but to day is your lucky day, I am waiting for you

Only; stupid, I thought there would be some intelligent people in England?

Is that your argument?

SAD very sad,he he.

Hi "Chumping"
-
Sorry Ive been away, but Im back now. So you claim not to know who Draoi is? If youre going to play ignorant at least be convincing, Draoi has posted on this thread, and since youve launched into a personal attack on Marco about something he's typed, Id suggest you have read this thread and therefore know exactly who Draoi is.
-
Quote "Are you that stupid? I thought there would be some intelligent people in England?"
-
No he's not. I suggest that either you are here to distort others viewpoint (since Marco actually contributes to these comments, unlike you who behaves like they were in a schoolyard) or you have no argument to put forward supporting your view that this is the best you can come up with.
-
Why are you linking your handle to a blog that doesnt belong to you? Sounds like Draoi there.
-
Ive said this on the other thread, but Ill say it again here just incase anyone missed it.
-
If you are a shill poster that Microsoft is alleged to employ, id start worrying about your job. You are certainly not putting Microsoft in a good light, and if you click on the link below:
-
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2234739/microsoft-staff-brace-major-job
-
You will see that it is a report on layoffs and a report that sales have slumped 41% (if the report is to be believed)
-
Now, are you going to return? Ive got plenty more links with interesting reports.

Oh, I see... You and Marco are one of the same person, or is it something more than that. Could it be an alternate personality?

Yes, this would explain the "double-team" effort from you people. Hey not to worry, I don't use Microsoft. If you are a moderator or web master of this site, you would actually know what I am using, well, okay, I was assuming that you might know a thing or two first -- ask Joe Wilcox, he might be able to give you an IP adress, but I don't think that would actually be of any use to you.

Besides, concider that I am not picking on him, nor care to. After all my dear chumps, I wasn't the one who said:

"...Joe Wilcox may be a shill..."

Since you two, I mean you dear Marco/chumps, we do have one thing in common, don't we? We both hate Microsoft.

But I think that is where our "commonality" ends.

^i^

Oh, the game is afoot now, have you split your personality into three, or is it the Goblin we all have read from the wonderful and dear letter that he wrote to chumps about on the blog that Goblin raises?

Oh, how I do like the name "Goblin." It's just amazing how quick you can come up with these names my dear chumps. Look at the timestamps of these messages, and you mean to tell me that these two other mindless shadows are actual people?

No... I can't accept it, no matter how hard I want to imagine that you have friends that would decend down upon me like a pack of wolves. Are these some sort of imaginary heroes?

Okay, I'll play along, so Goblin, send us as many links as you want, please. I hate microsoft, bring whatever you want against those folks. I could careless. My life doesn't revolve around as chumps put's it, "M$."

Also, chumps, who in the hell is this Draoi that I am being accused of?

I'll have to read through some more comments and maybe I can give him some greif?

I mean, does he deserve for me to pick on him or her?

You tell me, my dear chumps, Marco, and Goblin.

^i^

No links, no reason, only hormone fluid in high concentrations

Why?
Fear of losing his job?
Ha! the terrible credit crunch
In Rare Move, Microsoft Is Exploring Job Cuts
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123197886745683743.html
"Microsoft Corp. is seriously exploring significant work force reductions that could be announced as early as next week, in a sign that the weak economy is prompting tough decisions even at one of the steadiest ships in the technology industry."

I am speaking you; aka Chumpin' On Da' chips aka Doug aka Draoi etc etc, he,he
This is funny, he he

Hi Goblin;
"Sounds like Draoi there."
Yes ,he is Draoi, aka Doug the doctor PC aka etc
And he is protecting his jobs, ha,ha

Quote Draoi/Chumping "Oh, I see... You and Marco are one of the same person, or is it something more than that. Could it be an alternate personality?"
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Sorry "Chumpin" youre a little late on that one. We did have duplicate posters. Joe Willcox deleted their posts (which by the way they posted pro-MS messages and personal attacks on other users) Marco (I believe) has been posting here longer than me, and we both are separate people.
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Infact Joe himself said we are welcome to post. I suggest since its his site, you take it up with him if you have any other accusations.
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"Chumpin" I dont need to argue with you any further. I suggest you consider that just because someone has a different opinion to you doesnt make them any less of a person and certainly doesnt give you the right to make personal attacks on them. I dont think anyone is in any doubt over your intentions here. I think when you cant even post without linking your handle to someone elses site says alot. I think your behaviour also says alot.
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I will continue to post in exactly the way I want (regardless of what you say) there is no "game afoot" as you say, we are all adults. I wonder what you are?
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Id suggest if you want to play games and post on forums in the way you do, you may very well enjoy the Pokemon site. Theres plenty of games, and plenty of people who will rise to your silly behaviour.
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Post here, dont post here. Behave in any way you want. You are only showing yourself up. However I am pleased I can highlight the maturity of Open source posters at your expense (since you are the only one behaving like a child)

Dearest Marco;

Certainly, I will address this imaginary person. Again, you can call me anything you like. Looking around at some of these posts, it seems you have accused many to be one of the same. Ironic, isn't it. I mean it is always you and only you that do, chumps a.k.a. Marco, and my favorite of you, "Goblin."

Marco, who else should I be? Who else could I be?

The sun is rising here, I'll give you that, so I must be off soon. But until I get back, play a little game on Google and try so desperately hard on who I am.

Also try to convince everyone that you are not the plagiarizing fool that I know you are.

I wonder, what would "cheznoble", the one your stole is words would say to you.

"Parallel Thought?" My dear a$$, Marco.

Tsk,tsk,tsk...

^i^

Goblin, chips ; doctor Doug aka(for to day)Chumpin' On Da' chips aka Draoi , Will not understanding reasons, because the problems is money (MS' money, clearly) so..it's now all about fun.

My dear sweet Goblin; (A.K.A.) chumps...

Why do you elude yourself in such a way and over-extend your presumptuous mind. Guard yourself a little more, make this game fun. You latest comments shows that you are so desperately reaching, struggling to define, put your silly mind around it all, to assume to much, and miss it by a kilometer.

Goblin, you disappoint, clutching at straws. Yes, I know that I have the privilege to post here as well. I thank you for your permission by the way, Joe Wilcox, thank you indeed. Or is that just another ruse.

chumps, Goblin, and or Marco, I am seeing so much more about you. chumps, the advacate and all that is holy in Linux, Goblin, the presumptous one, and Marco, the juvinille minded one.

Please forgive me, I address the personna called Marco, but I imagine you as a little Brit with laughing eyes and a joval face. No insult intended, none, I assure you.

Well, it's time for me to go, the day is starting, and maybe this will give you ample time to come up with something fun.

^i^

My dear sweet Goblin; (A.K.A.) chumps...

Why do you elude yourself in such a way and over-extend your presumptuous mind. Guard yourself a little more, make this game fun. You latest comments shows that you are so desperately reaching, struggling to define, put your silly mind around it all, to assume to much, and miss it by a kilometer.

Goblin, you disappoint, clutching at straws. Yes, I know that I have the privilege to post here as well. I thank you for your permission by the way, Joe Wilcox, thank you indeed. Or is that just another ruse.

chumps, Goblin, and or Marco, I am seeing so much more about you. chumps, the advocate and all that is holy in Linux, Goblin, the presumptuous one, and Marco, the juvenile minded one.

Please forgive me, I address the persona called Marco, but I imagine you as a little Brit with laughing eyes and a jovial face. No insult intended, none, I assure you.

Well, it's time for me to go, the day is starting, and maybe this will give you ample time to come up with something fun.

^i^

Well my dear doctor Doug aka(for to day)Chumpin' On Da' chips aka Draoi, was it funny but now it 's only repetitive thus a leave you with this quotes
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Former Microsoft Shill Openly Confesses, Alleges Microsoft Still Does This
It could be argued that Microsoft’s unethical Technology Evangelism (TE) practices are “old news”—i.e., that Microsoft stopped using these questionable TE practices long ago. This is very unlikely to be the case, for at least three reasons.”

–James Plamondon, former Microsoft shill (aka ‘Technology Evangelist’)

Microsoft is very well aware that the beans have been spilled and its disgraceful AstroTurf tactics are now known to an increasing number of people. As a victim of Microsoft’s tactics, I am neither willing to forget nor to forgive them. I intend to inform, to expose, and hopefully to make those responsible come forward or get sued.

James Plamondon is one of the key people behind it. You can find samples of his ‘work’ in several pages of this Web site. He explained in 2008: “Between 1992 and 2000, I was a Technology Evangelist (TE) with Microsoft, where I was widely considered to be its leading TE theorist and practitioner. For example, in the late 1990’s, I was the only Microsoft employee to design and lead TE training seminars that all of Microsoft’s newly-hired TE’s were required to attend.”

“As a victim of Microsoft’s tactics, I am neither willing to forget nor to forgive them.”By forcing dirty secrets into public knowledge, we forced people who had practiced these illegal tactics on behalf of Microsoft to come out and acknowledge them. Marshall Goldberg is apparently one of the high-level people responsible for it too. Is it he who rates Microsoft products 5/5 in Amazon? Either way, a Marshall Goldberg was presenting alongside James Plamondon, but there is not much information about this Marshall on the Web. Remember “Steve Barkto” [1, 2, 3, 4]?

There are several Web sites which seek to bring out the truth other than ourselves. There are other domains like slated.org, edge-op.org and even this Russian site, gotthefacts.org, which all expose the same type of illegal Microsoft tactics. Most of them just provide Web hosting (mirrors) for the evidence stamped by a United States court.

Quote Draoi/Chumping
"play a little game on Google and try so desperately hard on who I am"
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Why is Chumpin so fixated with playing games?
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They (again) clearly havent thought out their post, because they fail to mention that if I am the same person as Marco, why have I made no effort to link to my blog or convince people I am not? If I was Marco or indeed anyone else, I could have included links to the publicly logged chats with Roy from Boycott Novell (which by the way Ive been accused of being him aswell) or I could have linked to my blog.
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I dont think anything more needs to be said. If it makes Chumpin happy everyone here to claim everyone who posts anything offering an alternative to Microsoft can be the same person then fine, go for it.
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Chumpin, you really cant understand can you? We are not here to preserve any financial self interest, we are not here to convince people to part with their cash. We are not paid to come here. We do it because on honest held belief and ethusiasm for open source and also in the spirit of debate.
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Since you like to deceive by linking your handle to sites that dont belong to you, Id guess there is little point in Google. I wouldnt waste my time anyway.
You said "try so desperately hard on who I am." to which I say, do you really think anyone is that bothered? Do you really think that your posts are so well put together and your argument so coherent that we need to google you in order to cheapen your view? I dont think so, we can sit back and let you cheapen yourself, its far easier.

One last thing I noticed, Marco, your names of, shall we say, suspects is getting longer by the moment.

There is so much commonality between you three identities of chumps, it's remarkable indeed...

ta-ta...

^i^

Quote "Goblin, you disappoint, clutching at straws"
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What on earth is he reading?
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Quote "Yes, I know that I have the privilege to post here as well. I thank you for your permission by the way, Joe Wilcox, thank you indeed. Or is that just another ruse."
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Eh? I wasnt giving him permission (or no permission) to post here as its not my site I was merely informing them it was of no consequence to me, however they decide to post.
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Quote Chumpin "Marco, the juvenile minded one."
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Theyve got some nerve. Ive never seen Marco post like a child.
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Quote "My dear sweet Goblin; (A.K.A.) chumps..."
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Eh? Is Chumps suggesting I am now them aswell. It appears (as we've seen before) these type of posters end up confusing themselves.
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I hope Joe Wilcox looks at Chumpins behaviour and maybe considers recommending this site is registration only. It would remove this type of sillyness and maybe encourage people like Draoi/Chumpin to post responsibly.
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Just an idea.

Now it appears Chumpin is gone (unless they were telling lies and come back) Here is the post which they tried to dilute with all their sillyness:
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http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2234739/microsoft-staff-brace-major-job
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It highlights 41% slump in sales (allegedly) and possible layoffs at Microsoft.

I was forgetting, all (obviously) was about
bury this links, thus asking you for excuse me:

Virus sinks Royal Navy fleet comms
http://www.itwire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22716&Itemid=53
The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that, while no weaponry systems or navigational networks were impacted by the virus, other IT systems had been hit.

It declined to admit if reports of some 75 percent of Royal Navy systems being affected were accurate, but did not deny this either.
-------------------
PC PRO Last Edition:
STAR LETTER The great Ubuntu experiment
l've been a Windows admin for more than 14 years now, but recently l've round myself paying more attention to the Linux market, and with the release of Ubuntu 8.04 I decided it was time to finally give it a try.
I started a couple of months ago by migrating my home computer, and round that the whole experience was incredibly painless and far easier than I was expecting. Being able to browse the Internet without worrying a bout vi ruses is q trite a surreal experience, although like any good Windows admin I'm still a little paranoid, which means l'm running NoScript and I set up regular backups just in case. To be fair, Ubuntu does have its rough edges: I had to disable the 3D desktop effects on one machine to resolve a problem with Ubuntu crashing, and my home printer is playing up a little, but other than that it's been remarkably trouble-free.
In fact, everything about Ubuntu feels faster than XP. Browsing files on my domain is snappier than it is with Explorer. Reading PDF and Office files feels quicker, too, with large PDFs being really responsive. One of the biggest differences, though, is writing CDs. Anybody who's done this in Windows will know what l'm talking about. Start burning a CD and you can forget about doing any useful work for the next live minutes; if you have a DVD to do you may as well write-off the morning. It's so bad that we actually bought an extra Computer at work, just for producing our DVD archives.
On the down side, though, while Ubuntu does nave good support for Windows networks, I can't manage completely without XP. After all, l'm managing a Windows network here, and there's an awful lot of software that's Windows only. Ubuntu does have a lot built in: I can browse files on the domain fine, and its Remote Desktop Protocol support is great for managing my servers, but things such as Group Policy and Active Directory really need a Windows XP workstation. Despite that, they'll have to pry Ubuntu from my dead hands.
---------------

Goblin; "It highlights performance between Win 7 beta and XP"
I said that; Windows arrived to its Best with XP, there is no motive to migrate to Seven

Now ,adieu.

What was all that even about???

My first thought is the usual tactic of burying any links to damaging facts with spam, but look at the timing of the posts.

Was it to drown out the news that the UK Navy's switch to Windows was met within weeks with a virus that compromised 75% of their systems and potentially routed their email to a Russian server?

Or was it to drown out the news that job losses at Microsoft appear to be imminent due to weak earnings?

And I noticed that Chump's first post was to call Marco out on plagiarism for merely making a rather generic joke that has probably floated around the net in some form for some time now. What gives?

One other note: I've saw the Russian email reroute part in this post:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5537034.ece

I hope they come back.
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Its often difficult to find the right context to post interesting news about Microsoft but with posters like Draoi/Chumpin, it makes it a whole lot easier.
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Maybe they are actually open source fans and want to help expose the "other side" of what is happening with Microsoft?
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If thats the case, Id ask them to stop. We dont need to use underhanded techniques to promote Opensource (like Microsoft has been alleged to do), the facts speak for themselves and is the reason why we never get a coherent counter argument from them. (IMO)

@Joe Wilcox:
Thanks for finally posting my comment, only took two messages asking you to post it, this time. Guess that is better than last time, when you just totally ignored me when I ask you to free my post. So how about getting your filter fixed? Or is your filter as broken as the M$ software that you blog about?

@Goblin and Marco:
Goblin says: "I hope they come back."
Chumps will be back, most likely in another sockpuppet handle. I believe Chumps has been here in one handle or another for a long time. Because he knew a lot about the history of the comments, especially mine. I agree with Goblin, that we don't need an open source fan to use this type of technique to promote Opensource. We don't even need a M$ Shill/Troll to post comments in opposition really at all. Joe's articles are more than enough.

A couple of points of interests, is the Chump, used the word "cheznoble," a couple of times, wonder if he was trying to spell chernobyl? That would have fit in with the Royal Navy Virus, I guess. Somehow, I think he was also trying to get some personal information on Marco, as he was asking in a round a bout way, where Marco lived. Then he wanted us to go on a wild goose chase to where Chumps lives. I could care less if the chump lived in Britain, France, New Zealand, California, or Australia. But I have noticed, from time to time, that this recurring Shill/Troll, does do research on people who post here. Anyway, thats enough about our latest Shill/Troll, best not to feed them anymore.

@chips b malroy:
Very good points. (And good question, too).

I've done some research and have found an interesting pattern:

I-Man : Combative, flowery language, clumsy phrasing, rotten spelling, and horrifically poor grammar.

portuno [diamo] : Combative, flowery language, clumsy phrasing, rotten spelling, and horrifically poor grammar.

Draoi Dubh : Combative, flowery language, clumsy phrasing, rotten spelling, and horrifically poor grammar.

Hey Chips : Combative, flowery language, clumsy phrasing, rotten spelling, and horrifically poor grammar.

Chumpin' On Da' chips : Combative, flowery language, rotten spelling, clumsy phrasing, and horrifically poor grammar.

Coincidence? Perhaps... Perhaps not...

Hi, Will, Chips, Goblin, Philosopher.

Will:What was all that even about?

MS shills's general objectives:

1- pretend no association to the seller/group and assume the air of an enthusiastic customer
in order to mislead or influence possible customers

2-if the forum opinion is not favourable to MS, they will try to change/dilute the subject and/or bury particularly negative opinions/links

3-if all fails, generally they resort to direct attacks united to trying to destroy (or damage) the credibility of the opponent/blogger

In this forum we did see that and even more. I call that the shills's 'bomb' (i.e. Chumpin' On Da' chips)
He came here and exploded...he,he.

Personally i would like to see microsoft rammed up the rear until Ballmer walks like John Wayne after a looong cattle drive. The company is an archaic dinosaur that doesn't know how to produce quality software, but when it comes to screwing its own customers it has no equal. And quit with the "I love microsoft because it's a great american company that provides lots of jobs and makes lots of money" crap. If you take that view to its logical conclusion then you are simply giving away your own freedom of choice.